Landing Fees

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Ozrunways and other EFB's are very much official documents,  they contain the ERSA and ALL other documents needed for flight or a ramp check.

While a faithful reproduction of an official document ERSA is as valid as the origional - additional information / modifications does not fall under this accepted understanding.😈

[BurnieM]

My understanding is that while there are a lot of things that can be published in ERSA the required information is significantly less.

Perhaps AirServices can provide a required info document. 

 

Under consumer law if the owner of an airport publishes the fees on their website, as many councils do, they would be covered.

ie the info needs to be available, but not easily available.

 

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, BurnieM said:

 

 

Under consumer law if the owner of an airport publishes the fees on their website, as many councils do, they would be covered.

ie the info needs to be available, but not easily available.

 

If the customer (pilot) must search for the fee/price/charge information, the intent of the law requiring readily available pre knowledge of the cost, has not been met.

You can see the price of vehicle fuel as you approach the service station.

The restaurant menu charges are on the door/window as you enter or on the menu itself.

Your grocery items all have clearly labeled cost.

An investigation service eg my car pulls to the right when breaking, may not have a firm cost however the service provide is obliged to give an estimate (could be an hourly charge with parts ??) when asked for - this should be in writing. The prudent/professional service provider will contact the customer, to advise of any increase in the estimate, with justifications, prior to completing the work.

 

Every service or good you consume/use, that incurs a charge/fee, is obliged to advise you of the cost before you commit.

The advice method should be such that the provider can legitimately & demonstrably claim the the customer did know, before accepting the service/good.

 

NOTE: I am not ingesting that every good/service provider meets the standard. This is no excuses for not trying to improve the situaton (fees in ERSA). 😈

Edited Tuesday at 02:15 AM by skippydiesel

[BurnieM]

Okay.

For Shellharbour (YSHL) it says;

"REMARKS
1. AD Charges: All ACFT"

It lists the website (www.shellharbourairport.com.au) but does not explicitly say prices are on the website.

 

The Fair Trading website complaints page is https://www.nsw.gov.au/departments-and-agencies/fair-trading/complaints-and-enquiries?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23435143831&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwbve_I2LlQMVdWQPAh2LozhGEAAYASABEgJ6tPD_BwE

 

My best guess is that NSW Fair Trading will say this is adequate although not optimum but feel free to formally complain so we can confirm this (or not).

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi BurnieM,

 

Not sure what your point is, other than to show another airport not posting their aircraft movement fees in ERSA.

 

I could not find any fees on the web page you supplied.

Even if I had, this does not change the thrust of my argument that fees should be in ERSA, not on some obscure web site or with a third party informant.

 

Are you supporting  or against my position on this?

 

😈

 

 

[pmccarthy]

It takes six months to get an update onto ERSA. It is simply not practical to show fees. People would then be complaining that the info was out of date.

[Blueadventures]

12 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

It takes six months to get an update onto ERSA. It is simply not practical to show fees. People would then be complaining that the info was out of date.

Not needed in ERSA, add item to pre flight planning list (if it's not there all ready).  The Avdata charges fees list is great (Thanks for that lead by a forum member).

Like the weather forecast the fees info is need pre flight, especially if it's of concern (99% fees are reasonable).

[skippydiesel]

11 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

It takes six months to get an update onto ERSA. It is simply not practical to show fees. People would then be complaining that the info was out of date.

If it takes 6 months it will reflect the owners annual update (if any).

 

There are airfield owners who post their fee schedule in ERSA. I wonder how they manage this astonishing feet of compliance with consumer expectation/law?

 

Got to say, for a document that has 4 publications/annum, specifically to remain current, the idea that it takes 6 months to make a change/enty sounds a little implausable.

 

Am I correct in my impression, that you are a supporter of not disclosing airfield fee structures? 

 

If so please, make your argument for not posting your airfield fee structure in ERSA.

😈

[skippydiesel]

3 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

Not needed in ERSA, add item to pre flight planning list (if it's not there all ready).  The Avdata charges fees list is great (Thanks for that lead by a forum member).

Like the weather forecast the fees info is need pre flight, especially if it's of concern (99% fees are reasonable).

Yet another supporter of not disclosing airfield fees in the official document ERSA - Please make your argument for this support of non compliance with consumer law.😈

[pmccarthy]

I would like to know all fees in advance. Just saying from experience, there   Is a lead time to get something into the quarterly update. So if you send in a change, they will say you have missed the deadline for the next update. It ends up taking six months. You would have to somehow regulate all operators give six months notice of fee changes. They are councils and private operators. They don’t care.

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

I would like to know all fees in advance. Just saying from experience, there   Is a lead time to get something into the quarterly update. So if you send in a change, they will say you have missed the deadline for the next update. It ends up taking six months. You would have to somehow regulate all operators give six months notice of fee changes. They are councils and private operators. They don’t care.

My limited research suggests that the Councils (most numerous airfield owners) review their fee structures on an annual basis. Should this be Condorcet, there would not be a problem with a 6 month lead time for publication.

 

"......they will say you have missed the deadline for the next update"

 

Failure to meet a deadline for inclusion, can not be a policy, as your statement sugests, rather a failure of the individual submitter. As such is not something I, you or NAIPS can do anythig about. 

 

I will contact NAIPS regarding your 6 month lead time - still seems improbable to me for a document, that by intent, must be as up to date as possible.😈

[BurnieM]

I agree it would be desirable for for fees to be included (and up to date) in the ERSA but it still has not been established that they are required to be. What are the info requirements ?

 

Legally almost certainly publishing them on a council website covers them from a Fair Trading viewpoint.

 

This discussion has gone around in circles without establishing what is required.

 

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, BurnieM said:

I agree it would be desirable for for fees to be included (and up to date) in the ERSA but it still has not been established that they are required to be. What are the info requirements ?

 

Legally almost certainly publishing them on a council website covers them from a Fair Trading viewpoint.

 

This discussion has gone around in circles without establishing what is required.

 

I take heart from your rather "low key" acknowledgment that it would be "desirable" for airfield fees to be published in ERSA.

 

I would very much doubt that the the intent of the Law, covering posting fees for goods & services, has been met by what is usually a difficult to navigate Council web site that also includes  all that Councils fees (ie not specific to their airport(s), would constitute open & easily accessible.

 

Fair Trading departments are (to the best of my knowledge) State based. I will call the NSW department & have chat about this however to get meaningful ie comprehensive response to this issue, will likly be in the hands of the Federal Gov.😈

Edited yesterday at 12:25 AM by skippydiesel

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

I take heart from your rather "low key" acknowledgment that it would be "desirable" for airfield fees to be published in ERSA.

 

Geez, being but half-on-board the Diesel train ain't never enough. 

[onetrack]

Garfly, that's possibly because Skippy feels like he's pushing that train uphill, all by himself! 😄

[skippydiesel]

45 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Garfly, that's possibly because Skippy feels like he's pushing that train uphill, all by himself! 😄

Very true!

 

FYI;

 

I have contacted;

• Fair Trading NSW - They agree that the fees should be readily available to the customer/pilot ie it not reasonable just to say there will be a charge , the customer must (in most cases) know what the charge will be ahead of commiting to the purchase of the good/service. Unfortunatly they were a tad bewilder by the whole thing & suggested contacting Airservices.
• Airservices /NAIPS - They think its a CASA issue as its CASA that overseas what goes into ERSA (airfield oversight) and Air Services do the publishing. Recomened I put my (our?) concerns in writing. 
• CASA - Sympathetic but similar to sort of response to Air Services - request to put in writing.

I will write to both Federal organisations (Airservices insist they are not actually a Federal Government body - QUANGO?). I have a life, so the letter writing may take a few days - week.

 

At the very least there will be an answer of some sort.

 

😈

Edited yesterday at 06:22 AM by skippydiesel

[facthunter]

It's his AXE He's grinding. Seems to have become a Raison D' Etre, or Cause celebre, for him.. .  Nev

[pmccarthy]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

It's his AXE He's grinding. Seems to have become a Raison D' Etre, or Cause celebre, for him.. .  Nev

Either way, he's turning French.

[coljones]

On 16/06/2026 at 4:22 PM, BurnieM said:

Okay.

For Shellharbour (YSHL) it says;

"REMARKS
1. AD Charges: All ACFT"

It lists the website (www.shellharbourairport.com.au) but does not explicitly say prices are on the website.

 

The Fair Trading website complaints page is https://www.nsw.gov.au/departments-and-agencies/fair-trading/complaints-and-enquiries?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23435143831&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwbve_I2LlQMVdWQPAh2LozhGEAAYASABEgJ6tPD_BwE

 

My best guess is that NSW Fair Trading will say this is adequate although not optimum but feel free to formally complain so we can confirm this (or not).

 

Airport Fees & Charges » Shellharbour Airport https://share.google/BUXv9ZS2YdVSz3fXB which points to a PDF of council fees and charges. The airport is at page 84.

Edited yesterday at 12:23 PM by coljones

[Thruster88]

No need to seach through crappy council websites when the landing fee is shown in plane😀 sight on ozrunways and presumably all the other EFB's. I have heard you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

[KRviator]

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

No need to seach through crappy council websites when the landing fee is shown in plane😀 sight on ozrunways and presumably all the other EFB's. I have heard you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

The landing fees may be shown in OzR but are the other conditions of operating at the airfields?

For example - anyone lobbed into Longreach or the Gold Coast lately? Launceston? Have you checked your insurance policy to make sure you have the requisite $50M (USD) insurance coverage?

[turboplanner]

31 minutes ago, KRviator said:

The landing fees may be shown in OzR but are the other conditions of operating at the airfields?

For example - anyone lobbed into Longreach or the Gold Coast lately? Launceston? Have you checked your insurance policy to make sure you have the requisite $50M (USD) insurance coverage?

If you hadn't followed correct tracking, radio procedures, runway selection and you took out an RPT, or the RPT hit you and subsequently crashed, you could be up for an amount like this with a full load and deaths/long term injuries.  Does anyone have any current policy prices for this coverage?

 

I would think the extra distance to fly around these locations in a Recreational Aircraft would be a lot cheaper.

 

 

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, KRviator said:

The landing fees may be shown in OzR but are the other conditions of operating at the airfields?

For example - anyone lobbed into Longreach or the Gold Coast lately? Launceston? Have you checked your insurance policy to make sure you have the requisite $50M (USD) insurance coverage?

We flew into Longreach last August for an overnight stay, beautiful flying weather, country looking magnificent, only 5 aircraft on site. Perhaps the 50m insurance scared everyone away.

 

Just looked at the website listed in the current ERSA for Longreach and there is no mention of any insurance requirements, what more can one do?

 

Turbo, your posts are always doom and gloom scare mongering.  One can plan around RPT ops with a quick check on FR24 for arrivals and departures times. A transponder, traffic on the screen, TCAS in the RPT make it very safe nowadays.  

[turboplanner]

18 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

We flew into Longreach last August for an overnight stay, beautiful flying weather, country looking magnificent, only 5 aircraft on site. Perhaps the 50m insurance scared everyone away.

 

Just looked at the website listed in the current ERSA for Longreach and there is no mention of any insurance requirements, what more can one do?

 

Turbo, your posts are always doom and gloom scare mongering.  One can plan around RPT ops with a quick check on FR24 for arrivals and departures times. A transponder, traffic on the screen, TCAS in the RPT make it very safe nowadays.  

Nothing to do with ERSA OR scaremongering, someone just made a statement of fact.

If there is a reasonably forseeable risk, you have the responsibility not to breach it. 

Someone has just posted about airports blocking access to those who don't have suitable PL coverage. 

I noticed the comments about Longreach; I, personally would identify that there is a reasonably foreeable risk that at Longreach I may be invvolved in a collision with an RPT or Charter aircraft and they may be arriving early or late. The reason I asked if anyone knew the cost of a $50 Million policy was to give people an idea of whether it was significant, or necessary to find a smaller airfield to use.

[skippydiesel]

"Please explain"

 

When someone (me) identifies a lack (no airfield fee schedule) in a vital document (ERSA) and starts to try & do something about it, the overwhelming response is indifference, followed by negativity and the occasional look warm supporter.

 

Why is there not 100% support of having as much relevant flight planning information as possible, in the one document (ERSA)????

 

Would you not preferer to (A) know what your costs will be up front (B) have the option/choice to land elsewhere to minimise/avoid the cost?

 

But noooooo you would rather search through generic documents, contact various parties, who may or may not have the information. 

 

How many of you, don't bother to find out what the fee schedule is, just accept that there will be a bill  (could be a shocker) and pay up without so much as a whimper?

 

Am I missing something here, what is the problem with trying to get airfield owner/operators to post their fees in ERSA ??