Landing Fees

[skippydiesel]

Well there you go - One lives & learns.

 

I have been under the impression that ALL public listed/accessible  airfields must conform the the minimum standards  eg width, approach & departure, windsocks, etc

 

"Given you are meant to contact the owner/operator of. UNCR Airports prior to landing on them"

 

Again this is new to me - I have always understood that accessing an ERSA  listed airfield (open to the flying public) required no permission UNLESS so stated

 

"Might be with noting they don't have to specify PPR for this to apply."

 

As above - not my understanding - I guess the owner could ask you to leave, once landed but thats about the limit of their rights. 

 

ALA's are a diffrent matter. These are almost always private (inc. company) airfields/paddocks/ farm roads/etc, of unknown dimension & condition. Not listed in ERSA. Not required to comply with standards. You would be crazy not to seek permission to land, get advice on runway condition, hazards, etc. Landing on an ALA is completely at the pilots discretion.  Should their be a resulting incident, may not be covered by either the ALA owners or pilots insurance .😈

Edited June 3 by skippydiesel

[Love to fly]

8 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Well there you go - One lives & learns.

 

I have been under the impression that ALL public listed/accessible  airfields must conform the the minimum standards  eg width, approach & departure, windsocks, etc

 

"Given you are meant to contact the owner/operator of. UNCR Airports prior to landing on them"

 

Again this is new to me - I have always understood that accessing an ERSA  listed airfield (open to the flying public) required no permission UNLESS so stated

 

"Might be with noting they don't have to specify PPR for this to apply."

 

As above - not my understanding - I guess the owner could ask you to leave, once landed but thats about the limit of their rights. 

 

ALA's are a diffrent matter. These are almost always private (inc. company) airfields/paddocks/ farm roads/etc, of unknown dimension & condition. Not listed in ERSA. Not required to comply with standards. You would be crazy not to seek permission to land, get advice on runway condition, hazards, etc. Landing on an ALA is completely at the pilots discretion.  Should their be a resulting incident, may not be covered by either the ALA owners or pilots insurance .😈

I'm guessing you didn't look at the link I posted, reposted here.  https://www.casa.gov.au/operations-safety-and-travel/aerodromes/uncertified-aerodromes#Usinganuncertifiedaerodrome

ALA's were in the ERSA when I learnt to fly 20 years ago.  At some stage they got renamed UNCR.  They are the same thing.   The Oaks is also shown as UNCR in ERSA.  Screenshot below.

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, BurnieM said:

I could not disagree with this more.

 

And it is up to the user of the info to ensure they are taking information ONLY from the airfield owners website.

 

Obviously I disagree -

 

Australia has ERSA . An official document, updated severs times a year, essentially the pilots bible of AU airfields.

 

All this talk about contacting owners, alternative web sites, etc, etc ad infinitum,  is just undermining, what should be the accepted standard - If its in ERSA, its the word of God! If it isn't, it doesn't exist!😈

[skippydiesel]

19 hours ago, Love to fly said:

I'm guessing you didn't look at the link I posted, reposted here.  https://www.casa.gov.au/operations-safety-and-travel/aerodromes/uncertified-aerodromes#Usinganuncertifiedaerodrome

ALA's were in the ERSA when I learnt to fly 20 years ago.  At some stage they got renamed UNCR.  They are the same thing.   The Oaks is also shown as UNCR in ERSA.  Screenshot below.

I have, belatedly,  checked out the web site & noted the recommendations therein.

Like you, I did my GA training, about 34 years ago. Different times, diffrent language and dare I say diffrent standards.

I like most humans am a creature of habit - I never payed any heed to the letters under the airfield abbreviation. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

As for the advise  - I am only in the habit of phoning the airfield owner/operates when it is so instructed in ERSA OR I have some concerns about the airfield services, etc 

😈

Edited June 4 by skippydiesel

[skippydiesel]

Just had a pleasant phone conversation with the ARO, Western Downs Regional Council, (I think he said he looks after 7 airfields) on the matter of lack of fee information in ERSA.

 

Got to say he sounded open to the desirably of having his airfield fee schedules in ERSA.

 

He did point out that ERSA updates don't follow the financial year, so making any fees posted therein out of sync with his (probably most) Council policy, to review/ change  fees,  at about this time.

 

Anyhow there is hope for change😈

[Moneybox]

I tried to open the Cue airport gate but somebody took the key. I crossed the fence, did what I needed to do and then when returning to the car is saw a cleaner there. I asked how he got in and was told the shire had removed the key from the lock box. Now I have to submit an application to park my plane at the airport. I hope they don’t start charging a fee. If they do I’m going to demand something in return like tie down anchorages. 

[skippydiesel]

Fascinating - Cue has significant airport  structures (from satellite) but only the one hanger (?) like building.

 

"Now I have to submit an application to park my plane at the airport."

Why?  You already have the cost effective solution "..... crossed the fence, did what I needed to do...."

 

😈

 

 

[Moneybox]

10 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Fascinating - Cue has significant airport  structures (from satellite) but only the one hanger (?) like building.

 

"Now I have to submit an application to park my plane at the airport."

Why?  You already have the cost effective solution "..... crossed the fence, did what I needed to do...."

 

😈

 

 

Not a lot of private aircraft here. One business owner and myself. He applied to build a hangar consisting of 2x40' containers with a well constructed roof between. He's since added a third container to act as a rear wall to the hangar.

There's a new gate key in the lock-box. 😆

 

 

[onetrack]

That design for a hangar is cheap and effective, provided the roof is well anchored. And the sea containers provide reasonably secure storage against the light-fingered members of the community.

[facthunter]

Store stuff in containers and It looks pretty Ordinary not long after.  Nev

[onetrack]

I've been storing equipment, parts and tools in sea containers since the early 1980's and the only time I've had any problems is when the container springs a leak in the roof.

So you need to inspect container roofs thoroughly for damage and corrosion before you purchase them, and inspect them regularly when you're using them.

 

They get dinged around when container lift operators drop other containers on them roughly, out of line with their lift/lock points on the corners. Then water lays in the dents, and it's usually salt-laden water, which acts fast to corrode the hi-tensile corten steel the roof is made from. Corten is supposed to be rust resistant, but it's not as rust resistant as the steel manufacturers try to make out.

 

Edited June 6 by onetrack

[BrendAn]

8 hours ago, facthunter said:

Store stuff in containers and It looks pretty Ordinary not long after.  Nev

thats odd. worked out of containers for years. all our spares were in them . i don't remember any problems.

[Kiwi]

8 hours ago, facthunter said:

Store stuff in containers and It looks pretty Ordinary not long after.  Nev

We have tin roofs on ours, even added a gutter to collect the rain water.

12 years and they are still in great condition.

[facthunter]

I think it's mainly heat that has done the damage I'm referring to. Paint electrical Plastic and rubber. I can assure you I'm not making it up.  Nev

[BrendAn]

11 hours ago, Kiwi said:

We have tin roofs on ours, even added a gutter to collect the rain water.

12 years and they are still in great condition.

     Reply to nev not kiwi.Never said you were. 

Nearly all contractors in the goldfields had container workshops consisting of 2 40 footers with a roof in between. Some of the hottest conditions anywhere  and none of the problems you are coming out with.  Where did these problems take place.

[facthunter]

It was in Sydney so condensation may have done the damage. Any shed that drips Moisture at Night will damage plating and Paint and electrics. AND your aeroplane too especially from a rusted surface  with   dust.  The contents in this instance were restored Motorcycles and they were so badly affected as to be written off.  I knew the Fellow involved. Nev

[BrendAn]

20 minutes ago, facthunter said:

It was in Sydney so condensation may have done the damage. Any shed that drips Moisture at Night will damage plating and Paint and electrics. AND your aeroplane too especially from a rusted surface  with   dust.  The contents in this instance were restored Motorcycles and they were so badly affected as to be written off.  I knew the Fellow involved. Nev

That's horrible. Losing those bikes after all the work that goes into restoring them.

I think the difference here is we were in and out of the containers every day so plenty of air flow . 

For storage they are sealed so any water or moisture trapped in there would cause problems over time I guess.

 

[onetrack]

You can acquire big bags of moisture-absorbent chemicals that hang off the hooks inside sea containers. These are used to ensure the inside of the containers stay dry in transit.

I get them regularly from a huge glass merchant, they throw them out when they empty the containers. I'll get a photo of them next week in one of my containers. 

 

If the bikes went rusty inside the sea container, then the sea container was leaking and allowing water inside. Yes, the containers get very hot inside if they're not ventilated properly.

There's a big variation in ventilation between different containers, some have seriously inadequate ventilation, and some are good.

 

I've perforated small areas of the upper walls in of some of my containers to improve ventilation. But you must only drill small holes, or insects will find their way in.

You also need to install a cover over the holes, which stops rainwater getting in, in windy conditions.

[facthunter]

I'd suggest it was condensation forming on the inside at Night. Sydney is very Humid, Plenty of sheds drip Moisture at Night from the support Beams from the Underside of the Roof. A lot of dusts are either acid or alkaline. Higher up in a shed stays a bit warmer. because Hot Air rises. Most intricate things  when stored need special Preparation to prevent surface rust activity and oxidation of waxes and Oils. If you have reground crankshafts and newly Machined gears etc sitting on shelves they all need protection. Oils and waxes oxidise and Leather rots. Bat $#!t is really bad at damaging surfaces (Paint  and Plating). Rubber goes hard and cracks I have ONE (only) Sealed and well insulated room where stuff can be left for ages But everywhere else You have to cover if and Polish the surfaces to Protect the Finishes. Nickel and chrome are Both Porous enough to form rust below the Plating.   Zinc gives a Galvanic Protection but it's soft and abrades easily.  Stuff left sitting can deteriorate  badly of not looked after Properly. IF it's in a bin makes sure there are holes in the Bottom in case some water gets in there. Just one rusted tooth on a Gear Makes it useless. Beds on Lathes, Mills and machine grinders must be cared for Meticulously  or they lose their accuracy. Bare Metal ready to Paint should be coated with an etch or appropriate surface chemical as soon as it cleaned and dried.  Don't paint over rust.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

Just had occasion to investigate landing at Murwillumbah (NSW).

 

This airfield/Council illistrate why we should not be paying a fee, when its not listed in ERSA.

 

Note :  I have no desire to discuss Murwillumbah as such  - its failure to post the landing fee schedule, in ERSA, is typical of many airfields around Australia.

We as private pilots need to make a stand - No Fee in ERSA, No Pay!

 

From ERSA Murwillumbah (NSW)

REMARKS

1. AD Charges: All aircraft

2. Pilot notes refer to Tweed Shire Council web site

 

As instructed - Check out web site https://www.tweed.nsw.gov.au/community/events-venues/community-facilities/airfield

"Landing fees

The landing fees and annual fees are managed on behalf of Council by Avdata Australia. All information collected by Avdata is in accordance with Council’s Privacy Management Plan, NSW legislation and Avdata’s Privacy Policy.

Please direct any queries to Avdata in the first instance at [email protected] or call 02 6262 8111."

 

😈

[Thruster88]

23 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Just had occasion to investigate landing at Murwillumbah (NSW).

 

This airfield/Council illistrate why we should not be paying a fee, when its not listed in ERSA.

 

Note :  I have no desire to discuss Murwillumbah as such  - its failure to post the landing fee schedule, in ERSA, is typical of many airfields around Australia.

We as private pilots need to make a stand - No Fee in ERSA, No Pay!

 

From ERSA Murwillumbah (NSW)

REMARKS

1. AD Charges: All aircraft

2. Pilot notes refer to Tweed Shire Council web site

 

As instructed - Check out web site https://www.tweed.nsw.gov.au/community/events-venues/community-facilities/airfield

"Landing fees

The landing fees and annual fees are managed on behalf of Council by Avdata Australia. All information collected by Avdata is in accordance with Council’s Privacy Management Plan, NSW legislation and Avdata’s Privacy Policy.

Please direct any queries to Avdata in the first instance at [email protected] or call 02 6262 8111."

 

😈

Ozrunways, or similar, which you would, should, have looked at if you you intending to land there is showing the landing fee, $16.64 flat, and a clickable link to airport info. What more would you need?

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Ozrunways, or similar, which you would, should, have looked at if you you intending to land there is showing the landing fee, $16.64 flat, and a clickable link to airport info. What more would you need?

ERSA is the pilots Bible of airfield conditions.

ERSA is updated at least 4 times/annum - the information is as current as can be in a publication

 

All pilots using Australian airspace are obliged to consult ERSA (amongst other official publications) when planning a trip.

 

What I want is very simple, logical and I believe the minimum required by Australia Consumer Law - ALL airfields charging landing fees, lists/posts those fees in ERSA - not in some third party listing that may or may not be correct.

 

I stand to be corrected - "Ozrunways, or similar," are not official documents. Useful? Yes! but do not carry the legal authority of ERSA😈

Edited Monday at 10:58 AM by skippydiesel

[Garfly]

Clearly, the 'legal authority' of ERSA covers operational and safety matters only.  It doesn't extend to 'Consumer Law' or any 'user pays' arrangements between airports and aviators.  

 

[Thruster88]

6 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

ERSA is the pilots Bible of airfield conditions.

 

 

I stand to be corrected - "Ozrunways, or similar," are not official documents. Useful? Yes! but do not carry the legal authority of ERSA😈

Ozrunways and other EFB's are very much official documents,  they contain the ERSA and ALL other documents needed for flight or a ramp check.

[skippydiesel]

9 hours ago, Garfly said:

Clearly, the 'legal authority' of ERSA covers operational and safety matters only.  It doesn't extend to 'Consumer Law' or any 'user pays' arrangements between airports and aviators.  

 

Nothing could be further from the truth. 

• Is not the cost of landing an aircraft  at an airfield an operational matter??
• What central information source would you have the information published in, if not in ERSA???

 

I believe that there is a legal requirement for ALL providers of goods/services, within Australia, to make fess/payments for the same, to be readily available to the potential customer/consumer.

By readily available,  I mean the customer (pilot planning a trip) should not need to search for the information ie it should "stand out like dogs balls".

The appropriate location for such information should be contained within the pilots panning documents in the one location ie ERSA.

There are airports that publish their access (landing/parking/overnight etc) fees in ERSA, there are very many more who do not.

While there are many (non aviation) businesses in contravention of the Law, this is not a valid excuse for not drawing attention to such transgressions and trying to get it put right.

 

What is the malaise in Australian private pilots, that they accept with barely a whimper, unjust, illogical charges & treatment (ASIC & airport owners not making landing fees readily available)???😈