turboplanner

...... the flying [avref] bullets were like a river of molten lead. The Khybers were terrified and many closed both eyes.

The British firing dried up and everyone had a cup of tea............

....doing Left Hand Circuit operations, resulting in the need to declare an emergency every time you take off or call up at the entry points. The ATCs get used to it after a while though.

It does save the eyes a bit because you only have to look out one side.

This reminded Turbo of his days in the Khyber Pass with Cappy. The Khybers had heard the British Commands "Don't shoot till you see the whites of their eyes!"

The Khybers  had seen first hand how effective it was, and General Somewat Slim issued orders to his men telling them to close one eye, so he could reduce his casualties by 50%.

This ................

.......pay for a TIF Flight from The Darraweit Airfield to the nearest dairy farm where an old guy was rumoured to have a Puss Moth stored in his hay shed.

The Puss Moth got its name from ........

......with CT while out hunting becaise there would be bullets going everywhere.

There was bullet damage all around DG. Every road sign was perforated, with little stickers hanging down saying "Sorry, CT",

There were three bullet holes in the Mayor's window, a line stitched through the Darraweit Guim Memorial Shire Hall, the Pub dog was winged, but when a bullet hole was found through the boot of Isobell Simington-Smythe's car it was on ...............

16 minutes ago, facthunter said:

WHAT have YOU been involved with concerning Aircraft might be a MORE relevant question.

    Self Administration worked REAL good with BOEING didn't it?.  100's died GIANT payouts.. The FAA got BAGGED BIGTIME for allowing that to happen and Boeing's nearly BROKE.

OK so you don't know what Self Administration is in Australia.

We don't have self administration with our cars, but our sports and recreational clubs and associations have been practising it along with Councils and Industry for nearly 40 years. In Victoria the Department of Labour & Industry closed down about 1986 and there were no more Inspectors coming around testing cables and chains etc. We don't operate in the same way as the US, so no point talking about their system.

16 minutes ago, facthunter said:

All the different SASAO's divide the voice. of the Participants and gives them UNCERTAINTY. Forming them PROVES NOTHING.

Intetestingly I'm not seeing many complaints about SASAOs; they mostly go about their business, but it never stops in social media about the prescriptive part of CASA.

So why run them down when you're not involved with them?

16 minutes ago, facthunter said:

but a desire to avoid the Responsibility

Taking responsibility, and its associated costs is what SASAO's do, and have done it very well for the 40 years.

16 minutes ago, facthunter said:

the  FEDERAL LAW of the LAND charges them with accepting. Its able to by virtue of the government backing.. Nev

SASAOs also have to comply with any Statutory laws that apply, so that's covered.

36 minutes ago, facthunter said:

RAAus can't go anywhere and have authority to interview  normal citizens. All they could do is cancel their Membership or involve the Police ? THAT would go down well with the rest of the Membership NOT. An unlicensed Pilot is a normal citizen and has nothing to do with CASA unless there is some evidence of criminal activity of an aviation Nature to be Investigated  currently Or in the past when He had a current licence.. Nev

It sounds as if you haven't been involved in Self Administration, so you'd be better watching what's unfolding over the next few months.

3 hours ago, jackc said:

It’s not RAA rules anyway, unlicensed aircraft and unlicenced pilots come under CASAs rules……It may come under RAA, IF aircraft is registered with them, or recently expired?

We covered  that one only recently. When RAA didn't act, CASA audited RAA to see what the standard of administration was.

It certainly requires a careful study of what can be done outy in the community, but I've done it successfully in conjunction with Vicpol.

Getting the advantages of Self Administration and then not administering is not an option.

17 minutes ago, jackc said:

Knowing what I know now…….i should have started in Aviation, by going to the U.S. for a couple of months holiday,  Bought an FAA FAR Part 103 aircraft built and  got some training,

logged hours flying the wings off it. Shipped it back to Australia and reassembled it and just flown here, NO CASA, NO RAA, who are they?  Do like many in Western Qld now..

But I would buy any Aviation Training Books, I could lay my hands on, study everything I could to gain knowledge etc. 

Never need an MARAP to do ANYTHING 👍

Just at the moment the last thing RA needs is someone rabbiting on about breaking the rules. I seem to remember you telling us you were going to doze an airstrip on your Western Queensland proprty then it was under the Rockhampton airport space.

2 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Look how long it has taken to get group G up, 2 or 3 years and still not done.

Group G is just one operation outside RA Perameters, and involves taking shortcuts in training and operations which currently have clear boundaries between Prescriptive and Self Adminiistering Operations. It's the splitting and potential liability issues that this move relates to. Personally I don't think its='s feasible without RA training coming up to the level of GA in that area. 

1 hour ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

whatever happened to the other group which was going to run parallel with the RA-Aus. It was all over this website for about a year and then just quietly disappeared after they kept missing their 'open for business' dates ?

They were good people but instead of just setting up for RA, they wanted to include other aircraft, like the bottom end of GA and that was problematic, because you'd have to run a parallel with CASA airctraft prescriptive and the same aircraft in their group self - administering, so not at all easy to handle, particularly in terms of responsibility for accidents.

2 minutes ago, aro said:

If members, aircraft, ops manuals, CASA exemptions etc carry across from one organization to the other I wouldn't call them new organizations - just a restructure/rename.

 

A new organization would mean developing manuals from scratch, recruiting members etc. Totally different story.

In most Industries and Sports, if you want to get one up fast you pick an existing model that's worked and use that as a base; it can be from another Industry or it can be from the existing body.

Two of us set up the policies and controls of the reasonably complicated (about 75 mm thick) ISO 9001 Policy, including trials in 6 branches in three months, using an existing example from another industry.

....and CT should know; He decimated the Rabbit population of the Guim with his Morris 1100 until it threw a rod oned day, but he'd made enough from selling the skins to buy a mansion in Toorak.

Turbo had used a faster Morris 1300 for spotlighting foxes in Dingley, but the machine gun noise drew too many complaints from the residents who were ...........

Just now, aro said:

SAFA was HGFA, which has been around for how long?

When HGFA was operating SAFA wasn't around.

When AUF was operating RAA wasn't around.

These were new organisations.

22 minutes ago, aro said:

Are any of the current organizations less than decades old?

 

The rules have been written around the existing organizations, I don't think any new organizations have been created under the SASAO rules. In theory you could create a new organization, in practice you would need to spend millions of dollars, with no guarantee that CASA wouldn't just say no or slow walk until you ran out of money.

• Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. 
• Recreational Aviation Australia Ltd
• SAFA

Depends on how good you are with paperwork, and the skills in the group to produce an acceptable constitution, and policies and set up a skilled management structure, and also what you want to do.

12 minutes ago, aro said:

Are any of the current organizations less than decades old?

 

The rules have been written around the existing organizations, I don't think any new organizations have been created under the SASAO rules. In theory you could create a new organization, in practice you would need to spend millions of dollars, with no guarantee that CASA wouldn't just say no or slow walk until you ran out of money.

SAFA

1 minute ago, BrendAn said:

I don't buy that for a second.  He was known for pushing the envelope. You don't need any training to recognise the difference between bad weather and good weather. And I remember how bad the weather was that day.  Trying to blame others for someones stupid decisions is a cop out.  

Too much of this happens these days. We need to take responsibility for ourselves and our decisions.

Also being an experienced paraglider I would have thought reading the weather would be important for that as well.

MET as it is called is a complex subject and the Met Module favours the student who is spending a long time training because he/she experience more and different type of weather whereas someone who lives on site with the training taking less than 30 days may experience 30 calm and finew days then six months later take off and fly directly to their end.

However, those who read the Coroner's Report right to the end will have a better idea of what caused his death, and if there is a claim then a Court will decide exactly who was responsible.

7 hours ago, facthunter said:

"A lot of fairy stories there?" Can't you do Better than that?

  Self administering doesn't guarantee survival. It just divests responsibilities FROM the body that WAS  TASKED with the responsibility by the Government of the Land.  CASA don't care if the shows go under as Long as they are a safe distance from it and can wash their hands of it. Aviation is NOT like the other things you have been involved with, Turbo. You won't recognise the Problems. Nev

That's like a dog pointlessly barking at the back door. If the door's not going to be opened there's no point in barking.

Other than the Prescriptive GA aircraft administered by CASA, there's just one other way to fly prescriptively and that's with SAAA.

Apart from that, all the other options are with Self Administering bodies where all the participants, including non-government airfields have the duty of care to eliminate all the risks and they make their own rules to manage their operations. One of the confusing things is that when they start their engines they will be rolling and flying in prescriptive airspace where CASA is the safety authority and rule maker.

There are people on this site who have done the study and training for the self administering, but are winging it for the prescriptive and not knowing the difference.

14 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Not comparable.  GA is ICAO Compliant and CASA gets revenue from Aviation  fuel sales.  Relatively easy to  manage whereas  RAAus etc rely on a lot of dispensations to operate. That's NOT popular with the AUTHORITY and is the main reason about  Problems with CTA access. Whether this SHOW continues or not rests with the CASA. They won't come right out and say it up front, so not having much clout and much public sympathy being realistic you are between a rock and a Hard place. For Now I'd say Back the RAAus. It's all you have except GA. I'd hate to be working for them. You can't win. They made a mistake in trying to be the "NEW GA", but maybe they felt that was the only way to go to survive in the longer term..Nev

A lot of fairy stories there.

CASA already has six SASAOs;no reason why a group couldn't set up an  Incorporated Association the same as RAA Inc. with a similar structure and large scale activities like Natfly, and State or region based Committee Members, Aircraft Examiners, Maintenace Examiners etc. just like the others.

For years now there has been leakage from RAA to HGFA/SAFA; no reason why they couldn't expand more if they wanted to.

Sport Aviation Self-Administering Organisations.  (SASAO)                                                   

8 minutes ago, Area-51 said:

Fact checking will reveal that a "stakeholder", "an individual holding a stake", is an important part of a cohesive society, especially with regard to social and community events... Not to be confused with "steakholder", being "an individual holding a steak", also an important part of a cohesive society, especially in regard to social and community events, however difference can be noted in the later by way of added situational experiences of extended intimate and less public affairs, however this may not always be the case and often a scenario of seeing a stakeholder beside a steakholder in both public and more private situations may be viewed as a common occurrence, the main difference being asymmetrical proportions of stakeholders and steakholders within a more public setting, but this may not always prove to be a finite conclusion and therefore one should always approach all situations with more than a grain of salt.

Well it's like this; there may be an issue, or even a good idea that CASA want to communicate to pilots, but do the just limit it to RPT Pilots, Charter Pilots, CPL, PPL and leave out the riff raff like Hang Gliders, RA Pilots or the old Grumps that never stop whining? If they leave someone out, someone else will find out and complain about Natural Justice; if they just leave the old Grump out he's going to be writing stinging posts for a month. So they have to pick their market, and their negative risk if tey want to keep the message away from a long line of people.

Of course, if they are sending a message to everyone they'd be typing for half an hour and if they forgot one, they'd get the stiging posts, so they database all those groups under the heading Stakeholders, so everyone feels important and part of a big picture.

It just stratifies groups where all might get Attachment A, some might get an Attachmenbt B, some might get an attachment B, C, D etc depending on how they are classified.

......they could focus fully on firing their guns at the Boche and other Trump-like enemies without having to focus on flying and dramatically improved the British position. They next tried Morris Guns but they .............

30 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The Coroner gets involved when a fatality happens His/her job is to determine the Cause of death. The Weather conditions were the cause of death. WHO decided to FLY that day.? The Pilot.  No amount of training in any of the RAAus array of aircraft would have been of any benefit that day.  He was considered an exceptionally adept pilot and stayed in the air longer than most who haven't flown IFR. Its Likely the ICE was the final straw..  Nev

The Coroner has already released his report.

........loop throttle quadrant lever [avref], a device exclusive to the Jacka and if the truth be known the only good thing about that aircraft which was powerede by an engine designed to power a 4 stand shearing plant.

The loop throttle quadrant lever was made by Aston Martin in England, some saying it was the best product they ever made, because it could .........

33 minutes ago, aro said:

When you say nothing, you mean nothing other than approval by CASA (including rewriting all the exemptions to refer to the new organization) and obtaining insurance coverage.

 

If insurance companies decide they don't want to be in the recreational aviation business, that would be a big problem for new and existing organizations alike. Private aviation is small beer for insurance companies, if it becomes more trouble than it's worth they will just decline to write policies.

Pretty much all of that, however remember that there are many risk sports that are very much smaller than flying. I did see a case where Insurance companies declined to insure a big industry, but there was quickly an agreement for the industry to get its act into gear and it all calmed down.  As we found earlier in the year, RA in total hasn't been a huge risk.

43 minutes ago, aro said:

It's partly out of CASA's control, unless CASA indemnify RAAus. If the insurance coverage is denied because of actions of RAAus or a claim exceeds the insurance coverage, or the insurers just decide they don't want to be in that market, RAAus ceases to exist and pilots and aircraft are grounded.

 

Personally, I think some in CASA would like to see the end of RAAus. The various simplified medicals and the ease of conversion of a pilot certificate to RPL undermine the reasons people join RAAus, and appear to be designed to attract people back to GA from RAAus.

 

If RAAus ceased to exist, would CASA just rewrite the existing exemptions with reference to CASA instead of RAAus?

Take a look at the recreational aircraft operating in other SASAOs for that answer. There's nothing to stop an Incorporated Association setting up. Remember these are Self Administering.  

5 minutes ago, facthunter said:

At the end of the day It's about liability and whether CASA wants RAAus  (oranything similar)to exist into the future No sensible person would join some Body. that exposes them to an unspecified  potential liability that has no limit. Nev

It doesn't say anything of the sort.

There's a beautiful colour photo of a SAFA trike flying over a coastline around social media; they aren't screwed up in a ball about the current SASAO structure, they're doing some good promotion.

4 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I'm not on trial here and not everyone reads into a document WHAT someone else might.. I've explained the Arms length concept applying.. No definite conclusion to some  accident can be sourced/allowed from a Participating party. It has NO value. Documents and records should be available and provided and any technical matter that might have affected the outcome such as performance icing conditions of the Aircraft and any pilot. WHY would I presume to state what the Coroner was unaware of? Nor will I speculate on it. . Give it a break anyhow. Opinions counter to yours have a right to be expressed. Nev

Your still thinking in the Prescriptive era; a little like if you have an accident today under the prescriptive State Government system.