Aero engines vs Auto engines

[red750]

This is a continuation of the discussion started in the topic Light aircraft crash at Heck Field 27/01/26

[red750]

Turboplanner posted:

 

  6 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Speculation: There are not many engines designed specifically for generators/bore pumps. Most will be the same engine used in a range of commercial applications eg truck, dozer, tractors, marine, etc

 

I just gave you an example of an engine in continuous power demand.

Briggs and Stratton manufacture 10 million stationary engines per year.

 

You wrote a story based on the words. The design of the two types of engines are based on the Industry Constant Power Demand/Intermittent Power demand terms.

[Reynard]

German B&F aircraft produced their FK9 with a 3 cylinder engine adapted from a Mercedes Smartcar.   I think there is one of these aircraft in WA somewhere.

 

As far as I know, they are now powered exclusively by Rotax.

[skippydiesel]

6 minutes ago, red750 said:

Turboplanner posted:

 

  6 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Speculation: There are not many engines designed specifically for generators/bore pumps. Most will be the same engine used in a range of commercial applications eg truck, dozer, tractors, marine, etc

 

I just gave you an example of an engine in continuous power demand.

Briggs and Stratton manufacture 10 million stationary engines per year.

 

You wrote a story based on the words. The design of the two types of engines are based on the Industry Constant Power Demand/Intermittent Power demand terms.

My apologies, if I stepped on the misuse of words, by industry. Not an uncommon situaton, often created by the marketing department.

 

I don't recall you mentioning B&S  - a much respected builder of small air cooled engines - sometimes used in very light aircraft.

 

I do not actually see the relevance of your comment, to what you have just writen or to the general thrust of my comments, ground based engines V aircraft engines.

 

Still, I would like someone to either factually agree/disagree, in part or whole,  with my observations😈

[T510]

  2 hours ago, facthunter said:

 I personally think the chev Alloy V8 is a reasonable Motor  for Aircraft, and said so BEFORE it was used in glider towing. It's NOT their High Performance engine though. It's a 2 valve Pushrod Motor. The Mercury V8 Motor is a very specialised Product. The Chev. alloy Block wouldn't like sea water. Even Cast iron doesn't. Nev

 

A lot of marine motors are now using heat exchangers, they run closed loop coolant for the engine with a heat exchanger drawing cold water from the sea/lake/river so there is no salt/dirty water going through the motor.

 

Don't discount the LS series alloy Chev's, even though it is a 2 valve pushrod motor it was used in performance models like the Corvette and Camaro. The commercial versions used a cast iron block with either cast iron or alloy heads and the same internals as the alloy block motors.

 

Mercruiser used Chev V8's from the 60s till 2020, basically truck motors with a different cam and heads

Edited February 3 by T510

[facthunter]

NEVER again Skip. Nev

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, T510 said:

  2 hours ago, facthunter said:

 I personally think the chev Alloy V8 is a reasonable Motor  for Aircraft, and said so BEFORE it was used in glider towing. It's NOT their High Performance engine though. It's a 2 valve Pushrod Motor. The Mercury V8 Motor is a very specialised Product. The Chev. alloy Block wouldn't like sea water. Even Cast iron doesn't. Nev

 

Is the Chevy V8 the same/liniage as the V8 used in Rover cars of the past?😈

 

[turboplanner]

3 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

 

No, and the "Chevy V8: includes both small block and big block. The Chevy used to power several aircraft is the Chev 350, a small block 350 cubic inch engine.

[T510]

I have seen big block (typically an aftermarket alloy block) and small block Chev's in planes as well as the LS series (Gen III or Gen IV) which was the new small block released in 1997. Probably best known in Australia for the 5.7L all alloy V8 fitted to late model Commodores.

 

The Rover V8 was based on the Buick 215ci which was built in 1961-1963. Rover bought the design and tooling in 1965. It's power output is hampered by small ports but it is known for converting fuel and air into a wonderful exhaust note with a small amount of hp and torque as a by product

[Arron25]

3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

 

Accidently posted and could work out how to delete the whole post..

I initially thought the motor was Oldsmobile... but that was the Commodore V6😵‍💫

Edited February 3 by Arron25

[BrendAn]

35 minutes ago, Arron25 said:

Accidently posted and could work out how to delete the whole post..

I initially thought the motor was Oldsmobile... but that was the Commodore V6😵‍💫

commodore v6 was buick. 

[turboplanner]

8 hours ago, Arron25 said:

Accidently posted and could work out how to delete the whole post..

I initially thought the motor was Oldsmobile... but that was the Commodore V6😵‍💫

The first, VN Commodore was released with an engine that Buick didn't want any more, so the tooling was available cheap. GM Melbourne engineers spun the engine in reverse to the Buick, and got reliability and 125 kW. The later Holden Alloytec (ecotec) V6 was a joint design by GM Australia and US, for the Australian and Canadian markets at 152 kW. The Isuzu Jackaroo sold by Holden had a V6 at 171 kW.   

[Thruster88]

13 hours ago, T510 said:

I have seen big block (typically an aftermarket alloy block) and small block Chev's in planes as well as the LS series (Gen III or Gen IV) which was the new small block released in 1997. Probably best known in Australia for the 5.7L all alloy V8 fitted to late model Commodores.

 

The Rover V8 was based on the Buick 215ci which was built in 1961-1963. Rover bought the design and tooling in 1965. It's power output is hampered by small ports but it is known for converting fuel and air into a wonderful exhaust note with a small amount of hp and torque as a by product

The Buick/Oldsmobile 215 alloy v8 was used and modified with OHC heads by Jack Brabham and Repco to win the 1966 F1 world championship. Another car engine, the BMW M10 4 cylinder was used with a giant turbo to win the 1983 F1 championship. Car engines can sustain high output with the correct parts. There is the autobahn, sustained high speed running.

 

The problem with car engines in aircraft is usually not the core engine, it is all the other stuff, reduction drive compatibility with propeller and crankshaft etc.

[Siso]

As I understand a Cessna 172 came out with 180 hp verses the 5.7 in the VY commodore was about 320hp. You could derate the commodore to 250hp and still be ahead. I would think the V8 would be slightly heavier and would need a redrive. Looks like the commercially redrives are fairly expensive. You wouldn't need to allow for stress of the slip the foot of the side of the clutch pedal on some good bitumen either.

[T510]

A fully dressed LS1 (manifolds, alternator etc) is around 215kg, a 0-540 is around 200kg and a 0-470 around 192kg (depending on the model).

 

Once you add a PSRU (around 40kg) the LS there is a bit of a weight penalty but a huge HP gain. 

 

My plan was a camshaft aimed to produce maximum hp around 4200rpm with an appropriate PSRU.

By reducing the stock rev limit by 2100rpm the motor would not be working as hard hopefully giving greater reliability and longevity and you would still make ~275hp at 4000rpm

 

[danny_galaga]

On 04/02/2026 at 7:20 AM, Thruster88 said:

The Buick/Oldsmobile 215 alloy v8 was used and modified with OHC heads by Jack Brabham and Repco to win the 1966 F1 world championship. Another car engine, the BMW M10 4 cylinder was used with a giant turbo to win the 1983 F1 championship. Car engines can sustain high output with the correct parts. There is the autobahn, sustained high speed running.

 

The problem with car engines in aircraft is usually not the core engine, it is all the other stuff, reduction drive compatibility with propeller and crankshaft etc.

How many hours before overhaul on an F1 engine 🤔

[facthunter]

One of Mercedes Best race cars Pre war had a design life of 3000 Kms on the engine. An F1 would be fully rebuilt between Race events. Why would they Come Vast distances at great cost with a risk of failure in front of the whole World?  Horses for Courses. Not a Lot of Takers for venturing into F1.  Nev

[Thruster88]

14 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

How many hours before overhaul on an F1 engine 🤔

In the days of the bmw m10 turbo a fresh engine for qualy and another fresh engine for the race. Now days a limit of only 4 engine per season without incuring penalty. Very rare now for an f1 engine to blow up despite high rpm and output from the 1.6l v6 turbo hybred engines. Go Oscar Piastri in '26.

[danny_galaga]

22 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

In the days of the bmw m10 turbo a fresh engine for qualy and another fresh engine for the race. Now days a limit of only 4 engine per season without incuring penalty. Very rare now for an f1 engine to blow up despite high rpm and output from the 1.6l v6 turbo hybred engines. Go Oscar Piastri in '26.

So about 50 hours per engine? My Rotax is good for 2000. And a number of them have gone to around 4000.

[Blueadventures]

51 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

So about 50 hours per engine? My Rotax is good for 2000. And a number of them have gone to around 4000.

7,000 is the current highest hours known to Rotax.

[facthunter]

Hard to believe. No engine is bulletproof and Immune from Fatigue. Nev

[BrendAn]

14 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Hard to believe. No engine is bulletproof and Immune from Fatigue. Nev

i can. i have seen one that still passes leakdowns at 3600 hrs and performs as good as it ever did. 

i know of honda outboards with over 10,000 hrs .  cat c16 diesels that clock up 50,000 hrs in road trains.

 

[danny_galaga]

So while I'm in the camp of prefering engines designed from the get go for aircraft, still the idea is intriguing. Here's what I would do to start with for two different scenarios depending on aircraft size:

 

For big boy planes first, I would look at many years worth of Paris to Dakar rallies. I'm sure there are many categories, not just standard and modified. In the categories of standard and slightly modified (whatever that might be called) which cars were the most reliable? Not including the support trucks, which had an open class of their own at one stage. I suspect an 11 litre DAF truck engine is a bit out of the airplane league 😄

 

Don't look only at what won, but what used the least spares, and what spares were needed. That there is your most reliable, bullet proof engine most akin to an aircraft engine. Will probably be over engineered in some places, and maybe a tad weaker in others, but to me would be your best bet.

 

Talking of bullet proof, for ultralights, look no further than a late 80s Suzuki GSX1100. Around 120hp, air-cooled. Built in gear box sounds a hindrance at first thought. But you need a reduction box anyway. Pull out all the gears and lay shafts and just fit the minimal to get your prop right. The output shaft already is designed to take an absolute flogging from the chain drive. Maybe a short prop shaft and bobs your uncle! The only downside with my pick is these engines are now 30-40 years old, so careful reconditioning is key.

 

 

[T510]

There is someone claiming their Chev Silverado with a 5.7L small block engine reached over 1,289,000 miles  just with scheduled servicing

[danny_galaga]

2 hours ago, T510 said:

There is someone claiming their Chev Silverado with a 5.7L small block engine reached over 1,289,000 miles  just with scheduled servicing

Damn, that's a LOT of trips to the shopping mall!