Landing Fees

[BrendAn]

59 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

 

pretty sure i bet on that one in the melbourne cup😁

[skippydiesel]

39 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

you really think minister king could care less about rec fliers. she has her lifetime kickback from qantas, i don't think we match that.   only interested in the big end of town.

She is in the seat - no alternative (or do you have a suggestion?). 

 

If Minister King unwilling/uncaring enough to right this wrong, I will contact the Shadow Minister, Senator McKenzie, to see if some "stirring" of the political pot delivers a little action.😈

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Turbs me old mate.

 

I have been corresponding with CASA, Airservices, RAA, Australian Airports, AOPA, Antique Aeroplane, Minister King and sundry individual airfield owners. I apologise if I did not make this clear.

I also apologise for not understanding how the bulk of your comment has anything to do with getting Landing Fees published in ERSA.

 

😈

Getting Landing Fees published in ERSA which are not safety related relies on putting your case to the person who makes those decisions. If you don't want to take advice you'll get the same reaction you always got.

Edited September 23 by turboplanner

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, BurnieM said:

Yes, Skip is flogging an idea that many in power are ignoring but it does have some merit.

 

Not really about cross country planning and safety tho.

 

The example above was a pilot who was given a cross country endorsement without doing any of the cross country training, exercises or assessment. This was not a pilot who ignored his training. He did ignore some very basic risk factors including low cloud and rain that could be seen before taking off. This was a failure at an organisation level that we have still not seen the end of.

 

Was he given a cross country endorsement? or any of the other scenario. The point was he was using the wrong forecast for  a very specific, very aviation-safety based issue by getting his information from the wrong source. In this case the exact same thing has been happening.

[skippydiesel]

1 minute ago, turboplanner said:

Was he given a cross country endorsement? or any of the other scenario. The point was he was using the wrong forecast for  a very specific, very aviation-safety based issue by getting his information from the wrong source. In this case the exact same thing has been happening.

So not related to the thread topic.

😈

8 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Getting Landing Fees published in ERSA which are not safety related relies on putting your case to the person who makes those decisions. If you don't want to take advice you'll get the same reaction you aalways got.

Ye gads you do write a lot of BS ;

 

ERSA is about airfield information - not exclusively safety related.

 

"....putting your case to the person who makes those decisions"

 

Who may that be? Check out all the organisations I have been corresponding with.

 

The main argument is two fold;

• Basic courtesy or professional delivery of service if you prefer.
• Adherence to Consumer Law - if not directly applicable to airfields at least comply with intention/public expectations ie know what you will be charged should you utilise the service.

A safety case can easily be made - Pilot elects to bypass airfield, due to unspecified Landing Fees/Conditions - runs out of fuel. Dies in subsequent forced landing. Long shot, to be sure, but crazier things have happened.

 

Instead of comming up with negative /useless "advice" how about something that furthers the cause.

 

😈

[Garfly]

5 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

She is in the seat - no alternative (or do you have a suggestion?). 

 

If Minister King unwilling/uncaring enough to right this wrong, I will contact the Shadow Minister, Senator McKenzie, to see if some "stirring" of the political pot delivers a little action.😈

 

Well, as a citizen, I'd mark down any Minister of the Crown who devoted his or her department's time to an issue so niche, in the overall scheme of things.

 

Anyway, even if you got what you want, what difference would it really make to a private pilot's overall costs for an average aviation vacation? 

 

Like one percent?  Give or take? You know landing's probably going to cost.  And if you really can't find out up front, you could plan upon a guess.

 

(You might even end up ahead ;- )

 

I say again, ERSA is, first and foremost, meant for operational info - in ASA's word's  "information vital for planning a flight and for the pilot in flight".  Other bits and pieces are optional extras. ASA can't be expected to chase down every airstrip in the land for their latest fees every three months, just to help out the handful of cranky "consumers" who insist they need it (and can't find it elsewhere).  The administrative cost of doing so for all destinations would probably outstrip the total proceeds from itinerant fees that trickle down to groundkeepers.   In short:  No, Minister!

 

As to that safety case, any pilot who runs out of fuel in an attempt to avoid a landing fee that, well, for all he or she knows, might well be higher than he or she might reasonably have otherwise expected ... definitely needs their head read.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23 by Garfly

[skippydiesel]

Hi Garfly,

 

I am sorry for you and all others who find it so difficult to support my, or anyones, efforts to right what is a wrong.

Small in the scheme of things, to be sure, but a wrong thevertheless.

Neither I, you, or the hunderdes of pilots out there, should have to search for a charge, no matter how small/large, that will be levied on them by a service provider.

What I am asking for is simply good professional management - effectively communicate your charges to your clients (pilots).

It's not hard - Once per annum, when the Council reviews their fee structure, update (if required) the ERSA entry.

The fact that so few airport owners can be bothered to do this simple small right thing, post their fee schedule in ERSA, is a demonstration of their  contempt for pilots.

Why would you or any other pilot think this is reasonable?

😈

[facthunter]

You are wasting your time skip. Avdata is a Problem but none of this is much Interest to everyday People and you are Now appearing obsessive about it.. People pay for Parking and get Less. Aerodromes aren't low cost items. . Locals are Often not that supportive of aerodromes. Face the facts and move on.  Nev

Edited September 23 by facthunter

[skippydiesel]

 Hi Garfly,

 

"Well, as a citizen, I'd mark down any Minister of the Crown who devoted his or her department's time to an issue so niche, in the overall scheme of things."

 

If you expect so little from those, that we elevate into positions of authority, that is what you will get. 

 

I am sorry for you and all others who find it so difficult to support my, or anyones, efforts to right what is a wrong (you can not claim otherwise).

Small in the scheme of things, to be sure, but a wrong nevertheless.

A wrong, that when righted, will make all traveling pilots planning/lives just that little bit better. Is this a bad thing?

Every small wrong that you (complacent societies) accepts/ignores, just sinks you deeper into even lower expectations & service delivery (I did use a more colourful expression here but thought better of it).

Neither I, you, or the hunderdes of pilots out there, should have to search for a charge, no matter how small/large, that will be levied on them by a service provider.

What I am asking for is simply good professional management - effectively communicate your charges to your clients (pilots).

It's not hard - Once per annum, when the Council reviews their fee structure, update (if required) the ERSA entry. 

I don't know how often airfield owners must confirm the accuracy of their airfield entry but I do know they are required to note any changes (of significants ?) Updating a fee/charge (if required) is a minute additional expenditure of effort/cost.

The fact that so few airport owners can be bothered to do this simple, small, right thing, post their fee schedule in ERSA, is a demonstration of their contempt for a us the people - in this instance pilots.

Why would you or any other pilot think this is reasonable?

 

😈

[turboplanner]

Skippy, I actually went to the trouble of finding you the exact links to go to and got a facefull in return. You're on your own.

[skippydiesel]

6 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Skippy, I actually went to the trouble of finding you the exact links to go to and got a facefull in return. You're on your own.

Turbs;

 

Did you not read the list of organisations/people I have writen to, seeking assistance/support/action on this matter?

 

"I have been corresponding with CASA, Airservices, RAA, Australian Airports, AOPA, Antique Aeroplane, Minister King and sundry individual airfield owners. "

 

If you have some other organisations/people I can contact, who may further my Quixotic endevours - do tell.

 

The"facefull in return" is down to you my friend - introduce a load of irrelevant observation/comment (short version BS) you will be rightfully called out for it. If I am wrong in this, please demonstrate where & how and I will apologise unreservedly.

 

😈

[turboplanner]

You're repeating irrelevant BS.

Still you can't click those links I gave you.

 

According to your post you've talked to seven of the wrong people, if we leave out sundry airfield owners.

 

 

 

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

 Hi Garfly,

 

"Well, as a citizen, I'd mark down any Minister of the Crown who devoted his or her department's time to an issue so niche, in the overall scheme of things."

If you expect so little from those, that we elevate into positions of authority, that is what you will get. 

 

😈

 

What are you talking about?  I expect heaps from elected officials, far more than you do, I'd wager.

 

 

For a start, I expect Ministers with the wisdom to separate the sheep from the goats when it comes to all the "wrongs for righting" that pass their desks daily.  And to separate special interests from the common good.  (Having the courage of their convictions would be nice, too.)

 

Which is why I prefaced my comments with " ... as a citizen".

 

 

 

'As a pilot', sure ... I want all I can get. (Which might explain the contempt you say we attract as a group ;- )

 

 

Edited September 23 by Garfly

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

You're repeating irrelevant BS.

Still you can't click those links I gave you.

 

According to your post you've talked to seven of the wrong people, if we leave out sundry airfield owners.

 

 

 

Turbs,

 

Your have not taken on board/read who I have contacted.

You have supplied three front page Airservices links - to what end?

The second contact I listed was Airservices.

You clearly do not understand the relationship between Minister, CASA & Airservices.

You do not understand that the Ministers Office has stated - she will not act on my loan voice, only on representation from industry organisations (RAA, AOPA, AAA, etc contacted by me) or a petition (with a lot of signatures).

Why don't you do something constructive for a change - START A PETITION or similar.

😈

 

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

What are you talking about?  I expect heaps from elected officials, far more than you do, I'd wager.

Weird comment; By what measure? How would you know? (playground jab)

 

For a start, I expect Ministers with the wisdom to separate the sheep from the goats when it comes to all the "wrongs for righting" that pass their desks daily. 

So in your in your infinite wisdom, you feel it's just dandy for airfield owners not to disclose their Landing Fees up front??

 

And to separate special interests from the common good.  (Having the courage of their convictions would be nice, too.)

In your dreams buddy Politicians are all about special (self) interests. That's why they don't act (no matter how right) unless there is a demonstration of industry support, which she hopes will pay off in votes, come election time.

 

Which is why I prefaced my comments with " ... as a citizen".

You and I are just numbers, part of the great unwashed - of little account unless there is a vote in it.

 

'As a pilot', sure ... I want all I can get. (Which might explain the contempt you say we attract as a group ;- )

The contempt, by so called public servants in all levels of Government,  is for the public as a whole (I put pilots in brackets) - Just a cash cow to be milked for our productive lifetime.

If our expectations are so low, we cant even demand something as simple & easy, as posting Landing Fees In ERSA, what hope do we have of more impactful changes/improvements ????? 😈

 

[Garfly]

"We'll all be rooned." said Hanrahan.

[Blueadventures]

8 minutes ago, Garfly said:

"We'll all be rooned." said Hanrahan.

Yah, it's all good; just need a one liner in ERSA "Current landing fees can be found and / or verified at AVDATA (webb info inserted).  That link is great and very useful.

[turboplanner]

8 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Turbs,

 

Your have not taken on board/read who I have contacted.

Yes I have; and what I said was these were unrelated to the organisation you needed to talk to for a qery on ERSA contents.

 

So put them out of your mind.

 

To do what you want to do, you have to click on the link to NAIPS........NAIPS and no other body, Minister or Prime Minister.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

You have supplied three front page Airservices links - to what end?

To show you that the start of your search should be Airservices, aand not other bodies like CASA, since CASA have quite correctly steered you away from them, and presumed that you were qualified for cross-country flying so would know what NAIPS was for.

8 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

The second contact I listed was Airservices.

Airservices is the top of that tree, so its about 500% better than CASA, but it's not the body to talk to for the very minor subject you want to talk about.

8 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

You clearly do not understand the relationship between Minister, CASA & Airservices.

I think I was the one who said that's what your problem was, but you're under no obligation to listen to me.

8 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

You do not understand that the Ministers Office has stated - she will not act on my loan voice. 

I wouldn't either; it's not because she doesn't like you, it's just for an isssue which you could solve by one quick email or phone call, she doesn't have the time to get down to that level.

[Blueadventures]

I added the link to AVDATA about landing fees information in 'Resources' for easy access for all whenever you want the fees info.  Cheers

Edited September 23 by Blueadventures

[skippydiesel]

57 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

I added the link to AVDATA about landing fees information in 'Resources' for easy access for all whenever you want the fees info.  Cheers

Thanks Blue -

 

AVDATA is some sort of debt collecting agent, that are nothing to do with ERSA

Australia has provided pilots with an amazing & usually comprehensive single/centralised resource, in ERSA.

ERSA is consulted by all Australian pilots at some time in their training and if continuing to X Country/trips away, on a regular basis.

ERSA should not be subverted/down graded by incompetence, unprofessional  and I believe illegal behaviour ,on the part of airfield owners, that is not publishing their Landing Fees in ERSA, rather hoping some other body/system will "take up the slack" and supply the information.

As an aside - I qustion the legitimacy of any non Government third party, supplying information, that by rights should be in ERSA

That you have found the information, I want posted in ERSA, through another system/location does not change my position one jot.

You should not have needed to do what you have done to obtain the Landing Fee information, which should be in ERSA.

 

While I started this campaign, to simply centralis & standardise the supply of Landing Fee information, it has evolved (in my mind) to also include the continued integrity of ERSA. Once one small piece of information is dismissed, as bordering on irrelevant, what of other more critical information - what third party will spring up to deliver this and can it be trusted???

 

😈

[skippydiesel]

Turbs;

 

"Yes I have; and what I said was these were unrelated to the organisation you needed to talk to for a qery on ERSA contents."

 

I am not making a query on ERSA content - You are off on the wrong track. I am attempting to have all ERSA listed australian airfield owners publish their Landing Fee requirements in ERSA.

 

Airservices does not have the authority to encouraged or compell airfield owners to supply this information. 

 

On several points I believe & have conveyed to you that you do not understand the relationships of the Minister -CASA - Airservices - airfield owners - yet you persist in promoting this idea that Airservices is somehow all powerful in this matter - think again.

 

"...it's just for an isssue which you could solve by one quick email or phone call, ..."

 

Do tell - make it simple  so that I can understand.

 

😈

Edited September 23 by skippydiesel

[turboplanner]

55 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Turbs;

 

"Yes I have; and what I said was these were unrelated to the organisation you needed to talk to for a qery on ERSA contents."

 

I am not making a query on ERSA content - You are off on the wrong track. I am attempting to have all ERSA listed australian airfield owners publish their Landing Fee requirements in ERSA.

 

Airservices does not have the authority to encouraged or compell airfield owners to supply this information. 

 

On several points I believe & have conveyed to you that you do not understand the relationships of the Minister -CASA - Airservices - airfield owners - yet you persist in promoting this idea that Airservices is somehow all powerful in this matter - think again.

 

"...it's just for an isssue which you could solve by one quick email or phone call, ..."

 

Do tell - make it simple  so that I can understand.

 

😈

Are you ready Skippy? 

Go back to the link I posted for NAIPS> click the link> NAIPS will come up on the screen > Register, tell it your chosen Identification and password.> NAIPS will open up and you just have to find a field in which to ask your question.

[skippydiesel]

8 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Are you ready Skippy? 

Go back to the link I posted for NAIPS> click the link> NAIPS will come up on the screen > Register, tell it your chosen Identification and password.> NAIPS will open up and you just have to find a field in which to ask your question.

Seeing as you don't believe/trust what I say, perhaps AI can enlighten you:

 

Airservices Australia publishes and operates the National Aeronautical Information Processing System (NAIPS) in Australia. 

• System Purpose: NAIPS provides Australian pilots and operators with essential pre-flight briefings, weather forecasts, NOTAMs (Notice to Air Missions), and flight notification services.

• Organization: Airservices Australia is the government-owned corporation responsible for the country's air navigation services.

As you know (because I have told you several times) I have contacted Airservices - Airservices is responsible for the delivery/printing of NAIPS, which just happens to include ERSA; ergo NAIPS is the product of Airservices.

If you want to get Landing Fees printed in ERSA you contact Airservices (as I have done) only to find out that Airservices neither solicit or approve information in ERSA.

The information for airfields, is supplied by the airfield owner.

The information is approved (or not) for publication by CASA.

Neither Airservices or CASA can demand that the airfield owners must provide their Landing Fees for publication in ERSA.

It is possible that:

• Australian Airports Association (AAA, an industry organisation representing 340 airports) who have regular National & Regional conferences, are considering my request to add the desirability for Landing Fees to be posted in ERSA, to their discussion agenda (I live in hope).
• The Minister may contact airfield owners, suggesting that they post their Landing Fees in ERSA (more hope).

I doubt that the Minster would threaten the" big stick" - ie The airfields not posting their fees in an easily accessible location / format, are in breach of Consumer Law & therefor subject to civil proceedings .

 

At this stage, my focus is getting the Minister on side. RAA have agreed to write letter in support of my campaign. AOPA yet to be contacted.

 

Airservices/ NAIPS have passed responsibility, for action on this matter, to the Ministers office.

 

😈

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Seeing as you don't believe/trust what I say, perhaps AI can enlighten you:

 

Airservices Australia publishes and operates the National Aeronautical Information Processing System (NAIPS) in Australia. 

• System Purpose: NAIPS provides Australian pilots and operators with essential pre-flight briefings, weather forecasts, NOTAMs (Notice to Air Missions), and flight notification services.

• Organization: Airservices Australia is the government-owned corporation responsible for the country's air navigation services.

As you know (because I have told you several times) I have contacted Airservices - Airservices is responsible for the delivery/printing of NAIPS, which just happens to include ERSA; ergo NAIPS is the product of Airservices.

If you want to get Landing Fees printed in ERSA you contact Airservices (as I have done) only to find out that Airservices neither solicit or approve information in ERSA.

The information for airfields, is supplied by the airfield owner.

The information is approved (or not) for publication by CASA.

Neither Airservices or CASA can demand that the airfield owners must provide their Landing Fees for publication in ERSA.

It is possible that:

• Australian Airports Association (AAA, an industry organisation representing 340 airports) who have regular National & Regional conferences, are considering my request to add the desirability for Landing Fees to be posted in ERSA, to their discussion agenda (I live in hope).
• The Minister may contact airfield owners, suggesting that they post their Landing Fees in ERSA (more hope).

I doubt that the Minster would threaten the" big stick" - ie The airfields not posting their fees in an easily accessible location / format, are in breach of Consumer Law & therefor subject to civil proceedings .

 

At this stage, my focus is getting the Minister on side. RAA have agreed to write letter in support of my campaign. AOPA yet to be contacted.

 

Airservices/ NAIPS have passed responsibility, for action on this matter, to the Ministers office.

 

😈

STILL you can't just press a link and go to the people who can help you.

[jackc]

Maybe if Landing Fee information is not published in ERSA? 
Simply don’t pay?