turboplanner

M61 you are wasing yr time with turbo, I've put the fool on my ignore list! He just doesn't get it as he has no idea about commercial charter flying, a wannabe pilot!

It doesn't take long for the familar fingerprints of the prune refugee to surface; I already said I'm not involved in Charter Flyaing, I've already said my suggestion related to the transport industry, and I'm not a wannabe anything. Happy to be on your ignore list and waiting for the inevitable temper outbursts and gaffes.

On what planet?

I've been back in aviation maintenance for the last 16 years with a few different companies and contracts and every safety document is written by a consultant and usually they have a mining background. While they usually comply with legislation, a lot of their ideas are incompatible with aviation. Working at heights requirements, workstands and walkways are particularly atrocious.

You're pointing to your own problems. If anyone uses a consultant, and doesn't involve their own employees in what it addresses they get what you're describing. There is no point to writing an SMS which is not going to make things safer.

I would reverse these statements and say that "some" organisations have have good SMS policy and "most" pay lip service....That goes for the construction industry as well.

That could well be true in your area. It varies from industry to industry.

........the name of his Jabiru (avref), which he talked about endlessly on FB. So Turbo set out to trap the devilish Brine by a very unusual tactic. He......

......dastardly thief. The scrotums of the sixty worship attendees all constricted at once, and they looked around hoping no one was looking at them, because.......

Turbs, what is your take on the Whyalla disaster? I remember that they had a 2 week whitewash of an enquiry which didn't even consider details which were well known in the aviation industry. Details like how the first engine failed over Kadina ( Adelaide radar trace ) and why the pilot had good reason to believe he would get the sack if he landed there.

During the 2 weeks of the enquiry, more people died on the roads than in the crash, but I reckon that nobody else noticed or cared.

Not that onetrack's story is hard to believe. I am sure that most operators are decent people. But even decent people can act badly if they are overstressed at a looming bankruptcy.

I can't remember where it finished up.

I remember one of the TV Channels like 4 Corners or Sixty minutes did an extended story on it, and showed maintenance items and operational issues, and that there was an inquiry but that's about all.

Someone mentioned CAR224 earlier, so unless a PIC acts correctly he's going to take the hit as far as I can see; which is why I suggested looking at the truck industry's Chain of Responsibility.

The 12 Apostles closed this week due to the Coronavirus, and there's quite a large Victorian list of closures; virtually all sites which are regularly visited by groups of people, so you'll need to recheck before you leave. The Victorian/Tasmanian border also closed this week, and we cold possibly see all State borders closing. All in all I'd write off this winter for travelling.

Yes, we all get that, but the SMS is a tool the business uses to ensure that they have met their responsibility in managing their risk. That's why people keep bringing it up.

You're mixing with the wrong people; get out while you can because knowingly doing that gives them no protection at all.

The SMS is usually written by the people doing the work, adjusted regularly, and reflects procedures which will protect employees from injury. The SMS content and compliance can form part of any lawsuit, as in ignore it and you pay.

The SMS says all the right things, everyone can repeat all the right things when necessary, auditors get to see all the right things, but reality is often different, then occasionally something goes really bad.

There are certainly organisations with "lip-service" SMS clauses, such as "Everyone must work with safety in mind". That would be a useless SMS and would save nobody after an accident. There are some which you bring up from time to time who decide that although they have the responsibility for safety, they're not going to do it because it's BS. What governments have done for those is reinstate WorkSafe in State and Territory versions, where, after a negligent accident you can guarantee investigators will come in and the negligent people will finish up in court with fines sometimes in hundreds of thousands of dollars, and may be sued for negligence as well.

Most organisations these days have a very good SMS and Procedures policy.

At this point, we are speaking the same language. Different words. And we all want the same thing, so I can understand the frustration.

 

We have something similar in aviation. Developed years ago, we don’t call it CoR but Safety Management System (SMS). The whole system is designed to put everyone, from the bottom to CEO under a system where everyone is responsible for safe outcomes.

 

CASA tried legislating that everyone with an AOC needs a SMS maybe 5 years ago. The general aviation and small charter companies all jumped up and down and collectively said they couldn’t afford it. Didn’t want it, and it would cause undue pressure on their business.........it’s almost like the people that own these companies didn’t want a system where they could be responsible or liable......

 

Casa went backwards and required it for only for RPT operators. However for everyone else it was optional but recommendation (for other AOC holders). There are many places that have half an SMS, or just copy paste the standard SMS so they look like they have one. I would hazard a guess and say the vast majority of SMS’s in GA are poorly implemented or ignored.

 

The culture here is SMS is useless and a waste of money and effort. ICAO don’t agree, and I think they might know a thing or two about aviation. Airlines don’t agree, they live and breath SMS now. And it’s working, people from the cleaner to the CEO are responsible, liable and have a voice to report safety issues.

Chain of Responsibility is not the same as SMS.

CoR is prescriptive legislation where, as a rough example, after a fatal crash the driver might say he was coerced into driving too many hours, and Police will then interview the person he blamed. That person in turn might say he was only doing what he was told by the General Manager. The GM may say that it was Company policy for that Customer who has set a fixed delivery time with penalty rates, or issued an order subject to the goods being at the destination at a certain time (which would have required the driver to speed or fake log books)

In CoR you can get a situation where the driver gets off, but all those others are heavily fined or do time in prison; it's very powerful prescriptive legislation.

The Safety Management System is a non-prescriptive self administration system where the government (police) don't have any legal liability, so don't need to administer it, and don't need to prosecute.

Under Self Administration you decide how you are going to operate because you take the law suits if there's an accident.

This leads to the "optional but recommended" tag which catches so many people.

If you are a single person business which primarily consists of driving a car (which is primarily controlled by prescriptive legislation anyway), you might decide to keep the few safety issues you have to watch out for in your head.

The problem comes when you are sick and someone stands in for you and injures someone; then you might have a few million dollars in costs.

So you write an SMS for your operation, which will be a very brief document.

As the company gets bigger and more operations and more people are involved the SMS needs to be more complicated, but still simple enough to be useable by the workers. That document can then save you from a negligence lawsuit if the operator was doing what the SMS said to do.

RAA Inc. had an SMS; I'm not sure if one was set up for RAA Ltd.

I think that applies to ones brain as much as anything else. Especially in regard to your flying activities. Nev

Mine's rusty in the bores.

My preferred option is pin 1. If you've ever had a long thin split pin slide up and under the skin on your forearm or the back of you handwhile work on an aircraft in a confined area, you will appreciate it.

For someone who builds and aircraft, and is then qualified to service it, training in the basics, like this, would improve reliability by a huge margin.

Cotter pins don't need servicing every day, but things like setting a carburettor float/how to measure with a menuscus etc. are the types of things needed.

The disadvantages of 2 pack are that it kills you.

"can" kill you. It doesn't if you wear the correct mask (I'll leave anyone wanting to paint in two pack to check the respirator specification)

The respirators aren't expensive.

The benefit of the paint is it's more chip resistant.

TP, are you sure you got the numbers to the right factor there?

An expert on the radio today was talking about between 5,000 and 15,000 deaths. I wasn't listening to the whole show though, so it may have been for a state instead of the whole country.

The 15,000 was quoted over and over as deaths a couple of months ago. I just went on the US CDC site and they are listing 16,000 deaths (in the US) from 280,000 infected in the 2019-20 season to date (out of about 300 million people). So I think that's what ws being quoted

I've checked several times recently for 2019 flu deaths, and the number keeps coming up as 100 from 59,000 cases for 2019 Australia

Australia is still talking cases with 110 on March 12 and 454 on March 17 so our doubling has started.

This was quite an interesting press conference today by the Premier of Victoria (now calling himself Chief minister, as part of the new National Cabinet)

Dr Brett Sutton the Medical Officer for Victoria let us have a bit more serious information at around 10:06, suggesting the serious phase my stretch out to 10 months if we don't achieve the flattening of the bell curve that they want.

....... he hadn’t used his metric converter and he was cruising at 2.1 feet. Suddenly his windscreen filled with what he’d taken for two hills in the distance. He didn’t make it in between and finished up the the ample bosom of.......

Very few people know about the banning of feet in aviation. The new antics in RPT aircraft have been masked by closed security doors which replaced the previously open ones (to cut down the number of screams from hosties, but next time you go up with a light aircraft pilot watch as he reaches for the floor to apply rudder, or drops his.....

I have never seen an engine rusted up internally, although I have heard of it happening. What do you look for? Is it obviously rusted inside if you look through a borescope?

You look for sore muscles after you’ve stuck a crowbar through the clutch fingers and it still won’t turn.

Chain of responsibility doesn't matter. There will always be cowboys and they will always end up making the wrong calls.

In my civil engineering life I had a boss who was a mad keen flyer. He was a very poor boss, had no idea how to do a job or treat others he came into contact with. So bad that in the end I told the big boss I could no linger work with him. No problem. That man went on to get a flying job, mainly freight I think. Last I heard of him was an article in the Aviation Safety Digest, when he talked about his experience of nearly running out of fuel, due to bad weather and his not insisting on taking more fuel, even though he told his bosses that it would be prudent. He made the wrong decisions as a civil engineer and nearly died from the same behaviour as a pilot. With a bit of luck he has learned his lesson. I haven't heard of his demise.

CoR is not there to manage a driver’s behaviour. He has to do that and driver standard varies as you have said.

CoR is aimed at others who might instruct him, or put pressure on him either directly or through a chain such as a customer ordering goods for delivery at an impossible time, and the Tranport company telling a driver or subcontractor “this is what the customer wants.”

The regular 'flu varieties kill thousands of people in the same "at-risk" categories, as the coronavirus categories. There's panic about the transmissibility of the coronavirus, but the regular 'flu varieties are also highly transmissible, too.

The various authorities I think tried to smooth things by talking about cases, and the deaths at that stage were very low, so people thought in terms of comparing with last year's flu outbreak where there were 59,000 cases.

The 2019 flu season, the worst in many years, caused 100 deaths in Australia.

Covid-19 projection released by the Deputy Chief Medical Officer for Australia, Paul Kelly two days ago were:

Best Case: 50,000 deaths

Moderate: 100,000 deaths

Worst Case: 150,000 deaths

Nothing has happened in the last few days to change that, which is why Australia is going flat out to try to flatten the peak early.

Cancer sufferers will know this tactic, where treatment is aggressive as early as posssible so the doubling is delayed for as long as possible.

As Bex pointed out, for once a totalitarian government had a big advantage by controlling its population and squashing the bell curve; but you only have to look at the people trying to save the football industry instead of their parents and grandparents to see the difference.

Chain of Responsibility doesn’t apply to the driver, it applies to the management chain and customers.

....he heard a noise, but it was only the water jockey filling another font who'd had too much worshipping.

Arial, while bold was only a 6 pt font, e refugee from proon who'd come in airing his knowledge but was quickly found to be only a flightsim player, so likely to get a dosing sooner or other. The Font of All Knowledge was flat out giving out advice on coronavirus and how that affected.......

I thought as much!

Like I've said in another post unless you have been there and done that (actual commercial charter) then you really have no idea about the industry!

I feel sorry for you guys as you simply don't like the truth when it comes from qualified people prefering to big note yourself with fairy tales!

Good, that saves a lot of time trying to bring the life saving Chain of Responsibility to the aviation industry.

ATSB Report AO-2020-107 for VHOZO 11/03/2020 doesn't mention any cause for this accident, including any suggestion of pressure on the PIC to complete the flight.

ATSB are suggesting they might have an interim report out in mid April.

There's nothing wrong with discussing potential causes of similar accidents generally.

Turbo what sort of charter flying have you done? General or other?

I've done no Charter flying whatsoever.

I'm responding to alleged Chart Pilots who have alleged that they have been forced to do things they otherwise wouldn't do due to the threat to their job. Those allegations have been made from time to time on this site, which by its name is for recreational flying, not commercial GA, and there are the regular allegations on other sites from Charter Pilots.

Either there's some truth to those stories or they are bullsh!t.

I prefer to think there might be some truth to them; I don't need 2000 hours in Charter Flying to come to that conclusion, and I don't need tp prove one way or the other whether what they say is true.

If what they are saying is true, then I have some information from another industry which addressed and is reducing the exact same problem of management pressure.

Surely it isn't that difficult to understand that legislation in one industry which solves a similar problem is a good basis for solving the same problem in another industry.

.....a Synod to decide what to do. 250,000 people travel to Moorabbin each year to pray at the Shroud, and that brings in important income to pubs, clubs, latte shops, and of course Moorabbin International Airport, along with the 32 Ha brothel precinct.

The decision was made to position OT so that he wasn't the real OT who had worn the robe. That would be necessary to "find" events the "shroud OT" had been seen at, and see if any miracles had been performed at that......

"........he got caught." But Turbo, had been researching the Shroud of Onetrack, starting with some photos taken in the Bar of the pub on the night OT "rose". In particular, the sequence of photos showed a bottle of tomato sauce missing from the table in the beer garden. From there it was easy to get a sniff of the Shroud and confirm the "bloodstains" were tomato sauce. One night in the Parmelia, Alan Bond had told Turbo a long story about OT, and a long trail of missing money, other people's money. "Mrs Kelly wouldn't let her children play with him" Bond said, apparently forgetting the Century or so time difference.

From there it became quite simple for Turbo to turn State's evidence for no penalty in return for an additional propmise not to sell excess cat meat to the Sydney Restaurant trade.

Since this has only just happened, Turbo asks NES readers not to mention it as OT doesn't know yet, and.....

Well said?

Please note my explanation above.

It's pitiful that there is a solution for Commercial Pilots waiting there but we get BS posts obfuscating a relatively simple solution, and a solution used by another branch of the SAME GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT.