Landing Fees

[jackc]

2 minutes ago, clouddancer said:

RAAus cannot sell your data! But they advised members years ago, they would allow AvData to send bills to members.

They used to forward the bills to the members, but admin staff spent all their time forwarding and it was costing the organisation and therefore members too much money.

I would alleged RAAus  sold the data, so Avdata could bill landing fees, direct to RAAus Stakeholders. RAAus had no rights to release our data to any third party, for any reason? 

[KRviator]

9 hours ago, clouddancer said:

RAAus cannot sell your data! But they advised members years ago, they would allow AvData to send bills to members.

They used to forward the bills to the members, but admin staff spent all their time forwarding and it was costing the organisation and therefore members too much money.

A slight correction - they gave access to AvData (and individual Council's as well) - and then they told their members it was happening and updated their privacy policy after I called them out on their existing PP not allowing such use. I - and a few other members - lodged formal complaints to the OAIC about that, but it went nowhere.

[Garfly]

 

 

Bedford Pushes Back On ADS-B Fee Collection

AVWEB.COM

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FAA administrator Bryan Bedford says ADS-B was intended as a safety tool.

 

 

 

[jackc]

As an aside, at CASA meetings  this week, there was discussion of interoperability between EFB software providers, ensuring ADSB  data can be shared between platforms.

Namely AvPlan and OZRunways. The discussion centred  around mandating that ALL  EFB software providers have interoperability between each other, including any new entrant  to this field of software applications. 

[skippydiesel]

Back to Landing Fees:

 

Reference : ERSA

 

It's come to my notice (two landings at two diffrent airfields) that some airfields state that they charge a landing feed but do not say what that fee is. 

 

I believe it is against Australian Consumer Law, to charge for any Good or Service, without disclosing the fee befor the Good or Service is provided.

 

This makes sense, as accepting the published/posted fee, is tantamount to the customer (me) agreeing to a contract to pay the provider, for the good or service provided. No fee no contract!

 

If I be correct (??) would it be appropriate to refuse payment, when AvData bill for the landing(s)??

 

😈

[rgmwa]

Most of the bills I've had from them were for landings I never did.

[sfGnome]

I don’t think that that’s right (but I’m not a lawyer). The contact details are also in ERSA, and it’s up to you to ask for the specifics if you want. To not do so is a bit like signing a contract to buy a house without inquiring as to the price (yes, I know that’s an extreme example). A vendor doesn’t have to display a price, but they have to tell you when you ask.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, sfGnome said:

The contact details are also in ERSA, and it’s up to you to ask for the specifics if you want. 

Not so - ERSA under REMARKS, gives the following for :

• Dalby - "AD an AVDa Charges apply" - no amount conditions etc
• Armidale- "1. AD Charges: All ACFT"  - as above no fee or details.

Imagine if you pulled into a fuel station - no advertised $/L. After you filled up, they demanded say $10/L. You might feel a little taken advantage of.

 

1 hour ago, sfGnome said:

 

A vendor doesn’t have to display a price, but they have to tell you when you ask.

Not sure you are correct on this. My understanding is as stated earlier.

 

Anyone offering a good/service must disclose the cost up front ie before good or service provided.

 

In an airport context,  the fees & schedule/conditions (weights, duration, etc) should be in ERSA - Some airports do give it all, some do not. Its my contention that if no fee is published, no fee can be legally demanded.

 

I await the advice from our Forum legal experts.

 

😈

[skippydiesel]

ERSA is an official document (regularly updated for accuracy) that all Australian pilots revere to for precise details on the airfield they may land at. 

 

There can be no excuse for not publishing airport fees, conditions of use, in ERSA😈

 

[Thruster88]

53 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Not so - ERSA under REMARKS, gives the following for :

• Dalby - "AD an AVDa Charges apply" - no amount conditions etc
• Armidale- "1. AD Charges: All ACFT"  - as above no fee or details.

 

 

I await the advice from our Forum legal experts.

 

😈

Or you could have landed at Inverell, no landing charges for your class of aircraft. 

[skippydiesel]

50 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Or you could have landed at Inverell, no landing charges for your class of aircraft. 

True but thats not my beef.

The airports listed, incommon with most, are open to the aviation public (us) ie access in not resricted.

As such any terms conditions that are expected of the user (us) must be easily found/available ie published in ERSA.

Its my contention, that failing to make fees readily available, renders the charger, in breech of the law.

Any lawyers on the Forum???😈

[onetrack]

I'm not a lawyer Skippy, but I believe you're correct about businesses having to display or advertise the price or fee for their service provided. The ACL link is below for anyone to "bone up" on.

 

The only angle I can think of where they may have an "out" for not displaying landing fees, is that Australian Consumer Law only applies to consumers, not businesses (i.e., business-to-business transactions or agreements).

 

Accordingly, the airstrips/aerodromes involved may explain that they are largely dealing with businesses and business people, who land at their airfields - so Australian Consumer Law is not applicable.

 

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/price-displays

 

[Moneybox]

5 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Not so - ERSA under REMARKS, gives the following for :

• Dalby - "AD an AVDa Charges apply" - no amount conditions etc
• Armidale- "1. AD Charges: All ACFT"  - as above no fee or details.

Imagine if you pulled into a fuel station - no advertised $/L. After you filled up, they demanded say $10/L. You might feel a little taken advantage of.

 

Not sure you are correct on this. My understanding is as stated earlier.

 

Anyone offering a good/service must disclose the cost up front ie before good or service provided.

 

In an airport context,  the fees & schedule/conditions (weights, duration, etc) should be in ERSA - Some airports do give it all, some do not. Its my contention that if no fee is published, no fee can be legally demanded.

 

I await the advice from our Forum legal experts.

 

😈

I don't know the answer to that but Apple do it with their Apps. They don't display the price of the App, you only find out when you see the debit on your credit card at the end of the month.

[skippydiesel]

9 hours ago, Moneybox said:

I don't know the answer to that but Apple do it with their Apps. They don't display the price of the App, you only find out when you see the debit on your credit card at the end of the month.

I am aware that , along with many Australian laws, Consumer Law/Price advertising, is not universally/strongly enforced, that does not change the law itself. 

 

I made a tactical error - Not wanting to be pursued by AvData, I payed the requested fess - I should not have.😈

[skippydiesel]

11 hours ago, onetrack said:

 

The only angle I can think of where they may have an "out" for not displaying landing fees, is that Australian Consumer Law only applies to consumers, not businesses (i.e., business-to-business transactions or agreements).

 

Accordingly, the airstrips/aerodromes involved may explain that they are largely dealing with businesses and business people, who land at their airfields - so Australian Consumer Law is not applicable.

 

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/price-displays

 

This is a very "long bow" onetrack.

I, along with most of you, are private pilots, exercising our right to access a publicly open/available facility.

The only business in this equation is the facility supplier.😈

Edited Friday at 10:57 PM by skippydiesel

[BrendAn]

13 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

True but thats not my beef.

The airports listed, incommon with most, are open to the aviation public (us) ie access in not resricted.

As such any terms conditions that are expected of the user (us) must be easily found/available ie published in ERSA.

Its my contention, that failing to make fees readily available, renders the charger, in breech of the law.

Any lawyers on the Forum???😈

Where is turbo of the Bailey when you need him 😀

[skippydiesel]

8 hours ago, BrendAn said:

Where is turbo of the Bailey when you need him 😀

I tried to get him interested - Noooo luck, so far😈

[onetrack]

Turbo only specialises in liability torts. Consumer law is outside his expertise. 😄 

[turboplanner]

Think about it; has anyone ever beaten parking meters?

[jackc]

1 minute ago, turboplanner said:

Think about it; has anyone ever beaten parking meters?

Yes, 50 years ago, pipe cutters in Sydney AFTER midnight 🤩

[BrendAn]

26 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Think about it; has anyone ever beaten parking meters?

Parking metres don't send invoices to people for airports they have not even been to or been billed for over flying at 9000 ft.

[turboplanner]

15 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

Parking metres don't send invoices to people for airports they have not even been to or been billed for over flying at 9000 ft.

Parking Meter fines have a Natural justice process attached; you can nominate another driver etc. Check out the Natural Justice process for the examples you've given (which have been common complaints on this and other sites).

 

Usually pilots learning the NAV model are trained to pass abeam of an airport landmark, in which case they will call "ABEAM FINLEY" etc. a clear indicator that you didn't go there.

 

More importantly, your radar track will not show you at Finley.

 

The airport to airport navigators will show up within the circuit area of all the airfields they go over.

 

For those who say they were never there. It doesn't help to have a recording "XXX

overead Finley for Tamworth" and try to convince someone you weren't in the circuit or on the ground at Finley.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Think about it; has anyone ever beaten parking meters?

You clearly have not read the proceeding threads.

 

This is not about not making a payment for a landing.

Nor is it about being billed for landings you did not make.

 

It about knowing what payment will be levied for access/using the airfield.

 

It my contention that all fees/charges for landing etc at an airfield  MUST be easily available to the pilot BEFORE deciding to use that airport.

 

I suggest that the above fees/conditions of use should be in ERSA

 

Further - a pilot receiving an invoice for a landing , where no fees are advertised, can legitimately not pay.

😈

 

Edited Sunday at 06:49 AM by skippydiesel

[jackc]

3 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Parking Meter fines have a Natural justice process attached; you can nominate another driver etc. Check out the Natural Justice process for the examples you've given (which have been common complaints on this and other sites).

 

Usually pilots learning the NAV model are trained to pass abeam of an airport landmark, in which case they will call "ABEAM FINLEY" etc. a clear indicator that you didn't go there.

 

More importantly, your radar track will not show you at Finley.

 

The airport to airport navigators will show up within the circuit area of all the airfields they go over.

 

For those who say they were never there. It doesn't help to have a recording "XXX

overead Finley for Tamworth" and try to convince someone you weren't in the circuit or on the ground at Finley.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, pilots will simply not use their radio UNLESS they are actually landing?

IF they are doing a Nav Exercise, their EFB logs the flight path?

I see a future where pilots will turn off ADSB, Transponders etc to avoid Avdata and routes being logged, especially flying in more remote places. That includes placing their Phones in Go Dark bags as well, som phone towers don’t track their routes etc. 

[BrendAn]

14 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Parking Meter fines have a Natural justice process attached; you can nominate another driver etc. Check out the Natural Justice process for the examples you've given (which have been common complaints on this and other sites).

 

Usually pilots learning the NAV model are trained to pass abeam of an airport landmark, in which case they will call "ABEAM FINLEY" etc. a clear indicator that you didn't go there.

 

More importantly, your radar track will not show you at Finley.

 

The airport to airport navigators will show up within the circuit area of all the airfields they go over.

 

For those who say they were never there. It doesn't help to have a recording "XXX

overead Finley for Tamworth" and try to convince someone you weren't in the circuit or on the ground at Finley.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You really have no idea about avdata. They are always billing people for mistakes they make.

And no airfield has a right to charge someone a landing fee for passing 9000 ft overhead. They are only affected if you enter their circuit .