Landing Fees

[jackc]

2 minutes ago, clouddancer said:

RAAus cannot sell your data! But they advised members years ago, they would allow AvData to send bills to members.

They used to forward the bills to the members, but admin staff spent all their time forwarding and it was costing the organisation and therefore members too much money.

I would alleged RAAus  sold the data, so Avdata could bill landing fees, direct to RAAus Stakeholders. RAAus had no rights to release our data to any third party, for any reason? 

[KRviator]

9 hours ago, clouddancer said:

RAAus cannot sell your data! But they advised members years ago, they would allow AvData to send bills to members.

They used to forward the bills to the members, but admin staff spent all their time forwarding and it was costing the organisation and therefore members too much money.

A slight correction - they gave access to AvData (and individual Council's as well) - and then they told their members it was happening and updated their privacy policy after I called them out on their existing PP not allowing such use. I - and a few other members - lodged formal complaints to the OAIC about that, but it went nowhere.

[Garfly]

 

 

Bedford Pushes Back On ADS-B Fee Collection

AVWEB.COM

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FAA administrator Bryan Bedford says ADS-B was intended as a safety tool.

 

 

 

[jackc]

As an aside, at CASA meetings  this week, there was discussion of interoperability between EFB software providers, ensuring ADSB  data can be shared between platforms.

Namely AvPlan and OZRunways. The discussion centred  around mandating that ALL  EFB software providers have interoperability between each other, including any new entrant  to this field of software applications. 

[skippydiesel]

Back to Landing Fees:

 

Reference : ERSA

 

It's come to my notice (two landings at two diffrent airfields) that some airfields state that they charge a landing feed but do not say what that fee is. 

 

I believe it is against Australian Consumer Law, to charge for any Good or Service, without disclosing the fee befor the Good or Service is provided.

 

This makes sense, as accepting the published/posted fee, is tantamount to the customer (me) agreeing to a contract to pay the provider, for the good or service provided. No fee no contract!

 

If I be correct (??) would it be appropriate to refuse payment, when AvData bill for the landing(s)??

 

😈

[rgmwa]

Most of the bills I've had from them were for landings I never did.

[sfGnome]

I don’t think that that’s right (but I’m not a lawyer). The contact details are also in ERSA, and it’s up to you to ask for the specifics if you want. To not do so is a bit like signing a contract to buy a house without inquiring as to the price (yes, I know that’s an extreme example). A vendor doesn’t have to display a price, but they have to tell you when you ask.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, sfGnome said:

The contact details are also in ERSA, and it’s up to you to ask for the specifics if you want. 

Not so - ERSA under REMARKS, gives the following for :

• Dalby - "AD an AVDa Charges apply" - no amount conditions etc
• Armidale- "1. AD Charges: All ACFT"  - as above no fee or details.

Imagine if you pulled into a fuel station - no advertised $/L. After you filled up, they demanded say $10/L. You might feel a little taken advantage of.

 

1 hour ago, sfGnome said:

 

A vendor doesn’t have to display a price, but they have to tell you when you ask.

Not sure you are correct on this. My understanding is as stated earlier.

 

Anyone offering a good/service must disclose the cost up front ie before good or service provided.

 

In an airport context,  the fees & schedule/conditions (weights, duration, etc) should be in ERSA - Some airports do give it all, some do not. Its my contention that if no fee is published, no fee can be legally demanded.

 

I await the advice from our Forum legal experts.

 

😈

[skippydiesel]

ERSA is an official document (regularly updated for accuracy) that all Australian pilots revere to for precise details on the airfield they may land at. 

 

There can be no excuse for not publishing airport fees, conditions of use, in ERSA😈

 

[Thruster88]

53 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Not so - ERSA under REMARKS, gives the following for :

• Dalby - "AD an AVDa Charges apply" - no amount conditions etc
• Armidale- "1. AD Charges: All ACFT"  - as above no fee or details.

 

 

I await the advice from our Forum legal experts.

 

😈

Or you could have landed at Inverell, no landing charges for your class of aircraft. 

[skippydiesel]

50 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Or you could have landed at Inverell, no landing charges for your class of aircraft. 

True but thats not my beef.

The airports listed, incommon with most, are open to the aviation public (us) ie access in not resricted.

As such any terms conditions that are expected of the user (us) must be easily found/available ie published in ERSA.

Its my contention, that failing to make fees readily available, renders the charger, in breech of the law.

Any lawyers on the Forum???😈

[onetrack]

I'm not a lawyer Skippy, but I believe you're correct about businesses having to display or advertise the price or fee for their service provided. The ACL link is below for anyone to "bone up" on.

 

The only angle I can think of where they may have an "out" for not displaying landing fees, is that Australian Consumer Law only applies to consumers, not businesses (i.e., business-to-business transactions or agreements).

 

Accordingly, the airstrips/aerodromes involved may explain that they are largely dealing with businesses and business people, who land at their airfields - so Australian Consumer Law is not applicable.

 

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/price-displays

 

[Moneybox]

5 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Not so - ERSA under REMARKS, gives the following for :

• Dalby - "AD an AVDa Charges apply" - no amount conditions etc
• Armidale- "1. AD Charges: All ACFT"  - as above no fee or details.

Imagine if you pulled into a fuel station - no advertised $/L. After you filled up, they demanded say $10/L. You might feel a little taken advantage of.

 

Not sure you are correct on this. My understanding is as stated earlier.

 

Anyone offering a good/service must disclose the cost up front ie before good or service provided.

 

In an airport context,  the fees & schedule/conditions (weights, duration, etc) should be in ERSA - Some airports do give it all, some do not. Its my contention that if no fee is published, no fee can be legally demanded.

 

I await the advice from our Forum legal experts.

 

😈

I don't know the answer to that but Apple do it with their Apps. They don't display the price of the App, you only find out when you see the debit on your credit card at the end of the month.

[skippydiesel]

9 hours ago, Moneybox said:

I don't know the answer to that but Apple do it with their Apps. They don't display the price of the App, you only find out when you see the debit on your credit card at the end of the month.

I am aware that , along with many Australian laws, Consumer Law/Price advertising, is not universally/strongly enforced, that does not change the law itself. 

 

I made a tactical error - Not wanting to be pursued by AvData, I payed the requested fess - I should not have.😈

[skippydiesel]

11 hours ago, onetrack said:

 

The only angle I can think of where they may have an "out" for not displaying landing fees, is that Australian Consumer Law only applies to consumers, not businesses (i.e., business-to-business transactions or agreements).

 

Accordingly, the airstrips/aerodromes involved may explain that they are largely dealing with businesses and business people, who land at their airfields - so Australian Consumer Law is not applicable.

 

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/price-displays

 

This is a very "long bow" onetrack.

I, along with most of you, are private pilots, exercising our right to access a publicly open/available facility.

The only business in this equation is the facility supplier.😈

Edited 5 hours ago by skippydiesel

[BrendAn]

13 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

True but thats not my beef.

The airports listed, incommon with most, are open to the aviation public (us) ie access in not resricted.

As such any terms conditions that are expected of the user (us) must be easily found/available ie published in ERSA.

Its my contention, that failing to make fees readily available, renders the charger, in breech of the law.

Any lawyers on the Forum???😈

Where is turbo of the Bailey when you need him 😀