turboplanner

Well I thought it was time to kill the speculation about the Blue Foxbat crash and since it took place at my home club I rang around a few of the members who might have been there on Saturday to see what they knew and/or were willing to discuss. Here's the little I was able to find out, all answers were given in good faith but there is obviously a reluctance to discuss details until the ATSB reveal their findings -As far as folks know the news description of a presumably married couple aged 62 and 59 seems to be correct.

 

The names of the occupants are known to some but no-one was willing to name them.

 

The occupants were very fortunate that their injuries were relatively minor, the aircraft is a write-off.

 

All said the same thing - most details won't be made public until the ATSB report is issued.

 

The engine may have stopped but that hasn't been verified by anyone.

 

If the engine stopped it may have done so at about 2-300 ft after take-off.

 

The fuel taps have been a matter of discussion.

 

Check lists, or possible lack of them have been a matter of discussion.

 

A flying school that used to manage and hire out the plane has not been associated with it for some time.

 

The owner of the plane was not on board at the time of the crash.

 

The owner of the plane may have been managing the hiring of it more recently.

Unless they hit a ferris wheel, or the ATSB have specifcally said they want to investigate, this may never see the light of day. It's only very rarely that ATSB investigate RA accidents,

All govt jobs require Cert-whatever, therefore is CYA, meaning that when it goes wrong- "we've got all the boxes ticked, so it must be a problem somewhere else". Also have met many Cert-whatever instructors, some are good, many are very average, they got their bit if paper, but dont have the personal skills. The industry I'm in has changed to CertIV based, I do not believe for one moment that it has turned out better Aircraft tradespeople. I have CertIV in couple of trades, and all companies in my line of work require that, but at the end of the day, it has just been a box ticking exercise.Perhaps a new thread required........we're way off topic, but worth discussing.

If you train someone and he screws up, how would the Government be sued, and which Government.

If you train someone and he screws up and blames you, you will be sued, and a defence might be:

"I trained the student according to a formal, approved process"

"That process included the issue he made a mistake on, in Module 3"

"He was present for Module 3 training"

"I assessed him on completion of module 3 as meeting the standard for completion"

"I am qualified to do this as a holder of a Certificate IV in sword juggling"

The alternative is to imagine the plaintiff's lawyer asking you each of those questions

That's exactly right Head, it's not about the subject matter, you have to learn that from specialists.

The key components, which relate directly to producing a safe student are:

• On completion of the course, you will have the knowledge to assess the student's absorption of the module in a quantitative way (as against some of the comments above)
   
   
  
• You will know the implications of turning loose a student who has behaved in the way outlined in some of the other posts, and is not yet a safe operator.
   
   
  

Talking about instructor aptitude, or inbuilt training skills is fine, but you aren't firing the instructors without them, so you are leaving risk on the table. Cert IV is a way to remove that risk.

Relax web, they may vote differently on issues from time to time, and I've seen many change their mind between the motion and the vote, and a few move the motion and vote against it.

However, when they commit to a proxy they have decided to run with whatever their chosen member decides on the day with the benefit of the active dialogue.

That's their decision and they've happily made it.

You don't have to be concerned about that group of people, just yourself, and democracy will prevail.

Plus if their nominee goes again what they want they'll probably lynch him anyway and you STILL don't have to worry about them.

You wouldn't get the bit of paper if that was the case M1. Certificate IV is not as simple as depicted above. I looked into it and there was a substantial amount of study to be done. The only reason I didn't go ahead was that my work had moved away from direct sales.

One thing I can promise you is that it isn't a Government CYA.

Was there an instructor in either of these aircraft Turbo?. My understanding was that the Tecnam at Boonah had a private certificated pilot and his grand daughter in it , and this one? Names not released yet.I would strongly defend the general instructor base in this country, believing, and knowing many have grown up with the ultralight movement and, even the GA industry in Oz and they are stringently tested and reviewed by robust processes in RA. Whether all pilots choose to adhere to the practices taught to them is another matter all together.

It would help inform other pilots enormously if people wouldn't just hide away after an accident, but on the other hand the threads usually generate useful information even if they don't get to the precise cause of that accident.

However something Ballpoint has said prodded my memory, and is worth looking into for financial safety:

"Whether all pilots choose to adhere to the practices taught to them.........."

As a result of students not adhering to what they were taught in Industrial and Automotive applications, and resulting accidents it was found that in most cases instructors hadn't got the safety message across - the student hadn't absorbed it. So while the instructor thought he had taught them, he in fact hadn't, and people were being injured, not because they were exhibitionists or clowns, but because they simply didn't recall what had been taught.

This resulted in the Certificate IV course in Training, now a mandatory requirement for many instructors in many fields, but with a public liability exposure if, being aware of it you continue instructing people in hazardous pursuits without it.

What this Certificate course does is ensure the instructor knows how to assess and measure training progress in critical areas.

I taught a number of Australia's larger truck fleet managers how to drive a semi trailer on drive days at off-road Proving Grounds where there was no requirement to have an articulated licence, but I dropped this like a hot rock when I realised that without a Cert IV, I would be responsible if they misunderstood my instructions and took us off the road.

I'd recommend all instructors look into this.

Can I assume that with a fatality, that the ASTB should be involved?

However on a few occasions ATSB does step in and investigate, but this seems to be few and far between.

What we really need is for ATSB to investigate every one, because they have the legal powers to report publicly.

Yes David its incredibly frustrating that we just never find out the 'facts'. All we are left with is conjecture and the odd witness statement, unless of course its highly public like the infamous ferris wheel incident. I spoke to an investigator re davids accident some time ago, all he could tell me was that the evidence did not suport the theory that was being put forward by members.A similar problem occurred regarding Ian and Ellaine's fatal after natfly last year. Due to the light conditions at the time and the fact a tall ground structure was involved, the story was propagated that they just got low in the dark on approach and hit something, which once again was not supported by the evidence.

The thing that saddens me almost as much as the events themselves is the fact that we never get to bottom of the accidents and therefor cant learn much, if anything, from the events. Both of these accidents (im told) could have extremely strong learning outcomes for us all if they were investigated and reported on fully.

 

My friends in the police and ATSB say that their hands are tied do to legislation and placarded aircraft which is something I for one would love to see changed.

Playing with the email list relates to the Privacy Act, and I'm suspicious that it has been breached twice in the past twelve months by people who were not board members, once in reference to a pilot's status.

RAA has a website which can communicate instantly, and that has not been progressed or improved other than some superficial, mainly visual changes. That can quickly be remedied.

Correct DD the RA statistics are so high that I'm surprised it hasn't attracted an insurance retaliation already.

Your widow will sue your estate, and there goes all that money you had promised to the cat protection society, or your aircraft will catch fire on impact, and the fire will spread to neighbouring properties doing five million dollars worth of damage, and you'll have to work it off.

Was there an instructor in either of these aircraft Turbo?. My understanding was that the Tecnam at Boonah had a private certificated pilot and his grand daughter in it , and this one? Names not released yet.I would strongly defend the general instructor base in this country, believing, and knowing many have grown up with the ultralight movement and, even the GA industry in Oz and they are stringently tested and reviewed by robust processes in RA. Whether all pilots choose to adhere to the practices taught to them is another matter all together.

Pilot error is significantly a product of training and supervision - ongoing training and supervision.

Cficare, you are well entitled to your opinion, and every organization should be prepared for some scrutiny of its ideals and operations, with no exemption granted for Angel Flight.I have four ladies in my parish, who in the process of dealing with the diagnosis and treatment for cancer, have had the benefit of 40 Angel Flights since July last year, who would most probably wish to offer a strongly worded contrary perspective to the one you hold.

 

Angel Flight can not be seen to be a medical service. CASA was very clear on this issue before Angel Flight got the OK in Australia. If medical treatment is required on a flight, that is outside the boundaries for Angel Flight. Flights for non-emergency passengers to faciltate them attending appointments or treatment is entirely the scope.

 

I hold Advanced Ambulance Care qualifications with St John Ambulance WA, but am precluded from using those skills whilst acting in the capacity as an Angel Flight pilot.

 

A quick check on the Angel Flight website, and viewing the pilot profiles would show that the vast majority of pilots are very well credentialed to conduct the flights. Holding a PPL does not limit the aquisition of sound, or even advanced flying skills. It is possible that a low time CPL may not be able to demonstrate any more capability than a PPL with a few years experience, and an attitude to safety tempered by a few years of maturity. (Sorry if I have offended any newly minted CPLs)

 

No pilot is ever likely to get any financial gain by joining Angel Flight. My first few flights in 2004 were entirely out of my own pocket, but the introduction of fuel for the flights being covered, and the waiving of landing fees was certainly warmly welcomed. Angel Flight pilots are volunteers, and that they are not paid is not because they are worthless, but because they are PRICELESS!

 

The reality is that the provision of an adequate level of health care in regional and remote Australia is under extreme pressure. St John WA figures for country WA are up 23.8% on the preceeding year, RFDS Western Ops are up 13%. WA Country Health has identified that it is short by 70 Doctors in their patch. Angel Flight on its own will not dramatically reduce these figures, but so far in excess of 13,500 flights have been made as a genuine and generous contribution to make the life of those in the bush a bit better.

 

Why am I an Angel Flight pilot. I lost my first wife to breast cancer after a five year battle. We received some great support from our community, and to me Angel Flight is a fantastic opportunity to contribute something back to my community to ackowledge the efforts made to assist us. I have experienced transporting people back to the bush post chemo by both car and aircraft. My opinion is irrelevant. But I certainly have taken note of the feedback from those who I have transported.

 

Ayavner, well done for joining the ranks of the "Earth Angels". That role is vital to the whole operation of Angel Flight. We pilots get the easy job of flying. Tackling the freeways holds far more fears for me than taking flight!!

 

Now Cficare, would you care to detail just what these BIG reservations are that you have?

No they are not Pete, and Governance is NOT the immediate issue; there are several major issues which are personnel related.

These are well able to be fixed under the present governance process. What you have been espousing would be a long process given that there are set procedures to be followed, meetings to be convened, notice to be given etc to around 10,000 people. You have to crawl before you can walk, and you have to know which direction to walk in.

We don't have a specific sequence yet so no point in getting into too much detail yet.

CFI's controlling their patch and auditing safety, Instructors ensuring that all types of conditions can be managed etc.

Instructor Culture?

Ar you guys still wading through those heavy tomes? Fallen asleep maybe?There's lots of us common unwashed folk waiting with baited breath for some gems of wisdom to fall. (Or bombshells, strike out that which does not apply)

It must require a supercomputer called "deep thought"........

Well that propaganda could have serious repercussions for those two characters depending on how this all plays out.

The difference is though that when the bright idea fails in a cloud of smoke in the race car you roll to the side and get out another 15 grand for the next meeting, rather than drop down like a piece of floating paper.

Also in most cases the goalposts for aircraft engines are reliability rather than increased power, so you are changing a different group of specifications.

You won't, the thread's been pulled, so some serious issue, best not to follow that path

There is one version on pprune

It's very important to understand that Oil Companies and their specialists are only half the equation, experts as they may be.

The other half are the designers and builders of the engine.

So taking the advice of the oil supplier without the specific approval of the engine manufacturer can leave you at risk of rapidly destroying an engine.

You might think that after 150 years of designing internal combustion engines we would not have any problem producing a perfect product straight off the production line.

But the moving targets of changing materials and performance requirements continually cause design challenges, and we always fail somewhere.

The new design may have a localised hot spot due to forging design, or an oil gallery restriction which shows up in bench testing.

The cost of fixing it may run into millions of dollars, and even then there's a risk of just shifting the problem to another area.

A way out of the two problems above may be to specify a high temperature resistant oil for the hot spot, or a very low viscosity oil to get through the gallery bottleneck - neither being a good marketing ploy given that human nature says that many owners don't care about adhering to instructions, but a legitimate action nevertheless.

Not surprisingly the manufacture doesn't press release the fact that he has an engine with a hotspot or gallery problem, so the oil companies don't know about the specific issue, so the owner takes a big risk just using their recommendation which, reasonably is often based on engines of various makes and models operating in certain environments.

Frequently the special oil supplied by the engine manufacturer is more expensive, so human nature says people will buy cheaper products, or get advice they want to hear ("I've been using it for a month, it's great!" rather than "I've bench tested a hundred engines out to and got a 97% pass to 1500 hours")

Edit: low viscosity inlieu of high - sorry Boink, dislexic moment

What follows that is a succession of failures, often of the same component(s)

So given Recreational Aircraft are cheap unless you have to sink $20,000 a time into a succession of rebuilds (assuming you've survived the forced landings) when it switches to a horrific cost above GA aircraft, it pays to rigidly adhere to the engine manufacturer's commitment on oil specifications and fuel specifications.

It's been interesting to read of the major blunders people have been making because they didn't understand the differences between Aircraft and Automotive octane rating specifications - oils have much the same traps for the amateurs.

How many out there get to really fly. a few hundred feet at the most and slow as possible , there is no better than this!

The key will be whether any propaganda is included with the mail out, which could infer that the action was deliberate, which in turn would be a very serious matter.