turboplanner

....West Ceduna Roadhouse, known for its.........

....mandible....................

7 minutes ago, aro said:

It might be difficult to legally define that difference. E.g. when does "additional patronage from passers by" become the primary purpose of the business? Is a business allowed to grow if the patronage from passers by grows? Are they allowed to refuse aviation visitors if they are booked out by passers by? The second 2 might not be an issue at this point, but it sounds like the first one was the hurdle they came up against.

More likely just the Golden Plains C&E officers driving past, or someone in the town complained to Council that business was being taken off them.

C&E is an endless job with people putting up illegal signs, setting up businesses in their garages, renting out sheds for dwellings, conducting businesses in residential areas (the ones using angle grinders being booted out first), or jamming up streets with used cars etc.

22 minutes ago, red750 said:

There is  difference between setting up a coffee shop/snack bar at a small country strip for visiting aviators, which may need additional patronage from passers by who stop to show their kids a few planes landing and taking off, to remain viable, to taking great tracts of land from busy airports to sell bedsheets, electric appliances, womens shoes, etc. If encroachment airside is the concern, have they not heard of fences and gates?

Aro's point

Wangaratta is a good example of a good airport trashed by non-aviation Uses. Non-Aviation Uses restricting aviation would pobably be the issue that draws the biggest attention on this site.

Red's Questions

The big picture is what the State Government wants to happen with very small towns like Lethbridge

Power has to be supplied, sewerage has to be supplied, transport access is needed, schools and roads/streets/street lighting.

To avoid country Victoria developing like the wild west with diseases like cholera spreading some overal guidance is laid down by the State.

This is the Local Government Area of Golden Plains and the local Councillors also have their dreams for Lethbridge, so they take the State Planning scheme framework and create the Golden Plains Planning Scheme.

They are also concerned with things like schools, but in terms of wanting one, and making sure the small towns retain enough people to justify it etc.

I don't know if there's a coffee shop in the town but there might be a milk bar or coffee shop scratching for a living, and just surviving and the children might be the tree that keep the school or school bus in town.

So when a planning Application comes along like the one we are talking about where a coffee shop not exclusively operating for airfield purposes comes up for review, it is not going to be allowed because it doesn't meet the Planning Scheme and the Planning Scheme is ensuring the integrity of the town isn't compromised by the local town milk bar or coffee shop being sent broke.

....XXXX, which of course was no news to OT after Turbo had hooked the Chamberlain to his Rabbit Proof Fence with all its history and dragged it 30 mile to keep the rabbits out of his mindsite, but he dutifully picked his nose and listened, nodding every few minutes. When the call ended, he knew what he had to do, ......................

Just now, Marty_d said:

The percentage of the population who could read and write is vanishingly small (in England at least) as you go back through the centuries.

 

So that lovely precision writing pre 1600 is probably because the only people who could write, and did regularly, were the priesthood, some of the aristocracy and perhaps the occasional educated merchant.  Plus, writing materials (paper and ink) were relatively expensive so you made damn sure you did a good job.  No running to Big W for a ream of paper and a box of ball point pens.

Yes, and those were the people who recorded the births, deaths, marriages and then there must have been a period where the ferals were let in to do the records, and the obvious spelling errors started, and families just changed their names if they didn't like them, so you sometimes have to use thre or four cross references to be sure you have the right person. By the early 1800s you can pick up how the census-taker and registrar "corrected" names, and got them wrong, and then there was a cleanup leading to accuracy about the same as the pre 1600 and the writing as good or even better.

9 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'.
We, their sons, are more worthless than they;
so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt.

• Book III of Odes, Horace
  circa 20 BC

So for over 2000 years people have been complaining about declining standards of youth...

It fluctuates up and down.

When you reseearch for ancestry the copperplate handwriting of the 1800s makes ours look like scribble and the spelling is also better than today. When you get to the 1700s spelling is atrocious nd handwriting not much better. Going back through 1600s probably showed complacency. The 1500s, and 1400s showed precision writing, very good spelling and most names identified correctly. This level of precision seems to go right back to about 500 AD where the names start to look quite different to the names we are familiar with and it seems to be about the same right back to about 1500 BC.

15 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Once I asked a grandkid what he learned in school that day." Nothing grandpa" was the reply " Seb was being naughty today".

So the rights of the mentally disturbed kids trump the rights of ordinary kids by about ten to one.

I reckon this is the result of deliberate sabotage by the politically correct lot. Not open sabotage , but sneakier as it is disguised with bleeding heart arguments.

My grandson was victimised by one from Prep to Grade 3. The kid would come up behnd him and hit him or push him over and he would get into trouble if he retaliated. The kid obsessed with the same two o three boys and a couple of girls.

Having mentally disturbed in the school community isn't fair on the other kids who sometimes suffer permanent scars or other injuries.

On the other hand mentally disturbed children don't want to be prevented from having a normal upbringing.

The teachers are in the middle every hour of every school day, sometimes also being injured.

......and that's where I learnt to fight. I grabbed it by the anters and threw it to the ground. The rabbot started snarling and bit me on the leg. He made the mistake of turning his back on me and I kicked him in the nuts, and from then on he lost interest, nd provided many meals for our poor family, who otherwise would have had to eat Maccas every night, but it wasn't aways like this....................

There's a big drop from around the 1970s to recent years, but the introduction of national policies like NAPLAN are changing the syllabus back to including many things we need to be able to do in real life.

In Maths where many older people struggle to mentally calculate something, differnt methods have been toaght for multiplication, addition and substraction which are a breeze - way better than the old ways.

For example where we were trained to remember our multiplication tables up to 12 x 12, today a nine year old can multiply four figures by four figures, and where the older addition required adding from thye right and "carrying" leftovers back to the left, the new method starts from the left and is much easier to keep in your head. Not saying I can remember enough to move away from a calculator and Excel, but easy enough to learn.

5 hours ago, red750 said:

How do you go about getting the planning scheme changed, Lindsay Fox and the like seem to be able to do it when they want?

Don't tell me  --  money talks.

 

There is huge corrruption. In Victoria IBAC has been systematically surveilling the good old boys (and women), and Operation Sandon makes stunning reading with one property owner able to make a 782-fold killing on a single property, one suitcase with a $320,000 bribe in it and so on.

However, in answer to your question, to get the Planning Scheme changed requires an analysis by the Council Planning Officers who give the area an Amendment Number, and prepare a Request to the Minister for Planning for the proposed change, which on one occasion in my Council area was for 3.7 square kilometres, but might be to change a Road Zone to Residential Zone if the road is no longer going to be built. The Minister gives the request to the State Department for analysis, and if he receives a positive recommendation approves the Amen dment which goes back to the Council, and the changes are made to the Council planning Scheme. You can go to the Online Planning Shemes, click on your Council and find all the numbered Amendments there.

30 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Try buying something from a young person at a till for say, $11.55, and then give them a $20 note plus $1.55 in small change - so they only have to hand you a $10 note in change. Most of them are completely lost, as to how much change to give you.

We’ve been working on coins and change in Grade 4 this week. About 50 mental Calcs so far.

4 minutes ago, planedriver said:

I hope you got good marks mate, don't let the boy down.

I passed Grade 3 OK so looking good

Great day for Victoria today with Victoria topping Australia with NAPLAN results. I've been in Online schooling with my grandson every day from last year, and certainly a percentage of the students 9 and 10 yos left alone in bed fall behind, but the Victorian Education Department employed one on one tutors to bring those up to scratch by the end of Term 3 last year, passed virtually all students, then had the tutors return in term 1 for more one on one work, so virtually all were a match for their class by the end of term 1. One of the advantages of Online learning is the student doesn't have to cool his her heels waiting for all the queries to be addressed by the teacher, we go off and start our assignments, and those children come on line one by one, so most students get more done and that is probably the main reason for the above average results which came out on the same day that the Commonwealth Childrens Commissioner was peddling the line that a whole generation fo children had lost the year forever.

......bi...and Turbo just knew they weren't going to talk about bicycles, so he ................

1 hour ago, 440032 said:

As far as I understand it, the cafe was set up for and council approved for Airside access, only. (with visions of expanding to public access for passing traffic, of which there is a lot).

It became apparent, apparently, that public access was never going to get approved by council. Dunno why. Other than supposedly, they didn't want the public wandering Airside. Well we all know that's a no brainer to solve.

We posted about the same time. What I posted above is the address, the Zoning of the address and the Section 1,2,3 Uses.

The Council is obligated to work to the State Planning Schemes, so there was never an option for any retail premises serving highway traffic; the Council didn't have the power to contravene the Planning Scheme. There didn't have to be any reason.

Even is someone had tried taking it to VCAT, The Member has an obligation to assess the submission against the Planning Scheme.

16 minutes ago, aro said:

Sounds like there was too much protection. According to the post, the airfield is zoned Specific Use - Aviation, and the coffee shop is not considered an Aviation use when it is accepting passing (i.e. non-aviation) visitors.

3429 Midland Highway, Lethbridge

According to the attached planning Scheme map the whole property is Zoned SUZ3, Special Use Zone- Schedule 3

We don't need to know the story:

Section 1 Uses (No permit required) - Does not include Coffee Shop

Section 2 Uses (Subject to Planning Permit Application) - Retail Premises; Must strictly relate to the Use of the land for aviation purposes.

Section 3 Uses:  Any other Use prohibited.

So retail trade with passing highway traffic would breach any Planning Permit due to the words "Must" and "Strictly"

2 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

OK.. So I am lost again.. The airfield's not closing; presumably the coffee shop has permission to operate at the airfield; and the council is not allowing the coffee chop to attract passers-by for their custom?

 

I have to admit, I don't know that area too much, but looking at it on Google Maps, it isn't a small grass farm strip and has a warbirds business and a school by the looks of it.

 

Why would a council not want a business to attract custom? It's not like it is competing with anyone. Also, isn't the government hot on road safety, one of the things being take a break to stop fatigue? Surely a convenient stop at a coffee shop would provide weary drivers one more option?

 

Sheesh, Every time I try to finalise plans to return, someone finds something that makes me think twice!

 

 

The Google Earth shot was taken 28/1/19 and doesn't appear to show the coffee shop and house depicted in the earlier photo above.

It isn't unusual to spin your wheels for a few hours on a Planning matter, but pretty pointless if you can't get the correct data.

It could be as simple as someone put a coffee shop on site without a permit, someone else in Lethbridge saw it as competition, went to Council and Council C&E officers checked it out and closed it down.

1 hour ago, red750 said:

Effecively, what the council is saying, is that if you are driving down the road and see a petrol station with a cafe attached, if you pull in there, unless you buy petrol, you are not permitted to purchase anything at the cafe. The purpose of the service station is to provide petrol, so they cannot sell you a Coke unless you have bought petrol. What a load of codswallop.

Clearly we haven't been told the correct story, so I suspect that isn't the case Red.

22 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Maybe I read this wrong.. .Are the council saying they can't attract customers from outside the airfield to the airfield? Even if they coffee shop was included as something that made up an airfield, how would that have changed the council decision/direction about what I guess is putting up signage to attract customers to the coffee shop from outside the airfield?

 

If so, there is something very wrong - and airfield is, at the end of the day, just another industrial/commercial site to situate businesses and it sounds, well, just nuts.

The permit for the airfield may have included an ancillary Use of a coffee shop.

Planning tends to work on nesting, so when the Use ceased it removed the "sub-permit" for the coffee shop.

An Airfield is a Defined Use in planning

The land for a small airfield out in the Country is usually in a Farm Zone

Industrial/Commercial Zones are usually in the Urban or Peri-Urban area, so not related to this case

An application for a coffee shop with its associated car park in a Farm Zone is unlikely to be approved.

Farm Zones do allow some financial transactions such as a rural store where Ma and Pad might put some vegetables on dislay and an honesty jar, but the rural store is limited to a tiny area of a few square metres. This alone would stop another commercial operation like a coffee shop/car park/toilets.

So if the airfield is closed down, the coffee shop would no longer have ancillary Use approval and its permit would fall away unless it had Existing Use Rights.

2 minutes ago, planedriver said:

Thought for the day.

If you don't follow mainstream news media, you are uninformed.

However, if you do follow it, you are so often misinformed.

 

We're going through a phase where the mainstream print media is on the ropes. The best journalists are strggling to get stories, or being paid peanuts to work at home. There's an increase in Contributors (people who write stories, send them in and an editor buys the story. Many of the new brigade are not that good at spelling or grammar and a lot of the specialise knowledge is retiring. We did it through not buying newspapers and not buying advertising space.

There's room for someone to start an electronic media based on research and fact checking.

20 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

Haha love that:-) ALL the lunatics in charge are enjoying their power trips whilst they send numerous businesses to the wall & individuals to desperation with their oppression! It wont end here there's plenty more hurt to be handed out yet! By Xmas during lockdown No 10 (or whatever number) we may very well see far more revolt in the streets! Talk about a divided ruined nation!

I can't be bothered talking about a divided ruined nation; if 820 people hadn't been infected internally in Melbourne Aged Care facilities Australia would currently be sitting 13th best in the world in minimising Covid-19 deaths so far. 161 Countries can't say that, most getting nowhere near our performance.

14 hours ago, onetrack said:

I find the TGA has the most informative virus and vaccine site - I have to agree that if you trust politicians to tell the truth constantly, you'll be seriously misled.

 

https://www.tga.gov.au/collection/covid-19

Interestingly while TGA compressed its normal full evaluation and Approvals programme to stuck to the promised March 2021 rollout start for our vaccine programme, the US started vaccinating their way out of the pandemic on an Emergency approval, and only received formal FDA approval of Pfizer yesterday, and FDA haven't finished AZ yet.

6 hours ago, red750 said:

For those not on Facebook, 

 

There were several people on this site based at Lethbrdge a few years ago and it seemed to have a bright future.

I seem to remember officials from RAA flying in to discuss important votes for the future operation of RAA even.

So it's sad to see it go.

The above explanation does give us one Planning lesson though and that is to be careful to protect everything that makes up an airfield by defining and including EVERYTHING in the Planning Permit including the coffee shop and the circuit.

We should point out that the Mayor and CEO of DGCRC appears to have joined the Trumpian FL set in seeking to pinpoint the source of the current pandemic in one of the respected provinces of Victoria's proud Belts and Roads partner in wrongly assuming the origins of the pandemic and ancestry fo politicians. After discussing this giant cave for some time during which eerie sound came up from the cave the Mayor suggested Cappy go down the hole, Cappy suggested Turbo go down the hole and Turbo suggested.......but CT had shot through like a Bondi tram, so it was decided that all thre would go down. As they descended into the darknes, strange sound and flashes of light could be heard and seen, and Cappy ..........