CHANGES TO RAAUS MEMBERSHIP TERMS & CONDITIONS

[jackc]

I have to wonder where this will take us?

Must be signed before membership renewals are paid?  I guess if you don’t agree and sign, you cannot continue membership AND your Aircraft becomes unregistered? 
Maybe these terms and conditions need to be scrutinised carefully?  Rarely are things like this are changed to be a benefit, to members.

I HOPE there are benefits for members? 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Here's the actual news - it doesn't say aircraft will be affected

 

CHANGES TO RAAUS MEMBERSHIP TERMS & CONDITIONS

In the coming weeks RAAus will be introducing amended membership terms and conditions which will need to be signed by all members at the time of sign-up and renewal. RAAus members operate on the basis of informed participation, that is, that members are required to understand the risks involved in undertaking recreational aviation activities and agree to undertake these activities at their own risk. The new membership terms and conditions seek to ensure that new and existing members are better briefed on the risks involved in undertaking activities administered by RAAus and offer increased organisational protections by excluding liability for the provision of recreational services in accordance with Australian Consumer Law. These changes are consistent with the membership requirements of all other ASAOs including Gliding Australia, SAFA, ASRA and the APF.

Following implementation of these changes, RAAus will no longer be accepting membership renewals conducted via phone. This is on the basis that the membership terms and conditions form a legal document which must be signed. This process will be able to be conducted online via the membership application and renewal pages and for members who may not have access to the internet, paper versions will be made available. The membership terms and conditions contain specific wording which must also be signed for each state and territory. This is on the basis that each state requires specific wording and members are capable of operating across any state in Australia.

RAAus encourages all members to carefully read the terms and conditions prior to signing. It is recommended that membership renewals be carried out in plenty of time before planning to fly as last minute phone renewals will no longer be available.

[jackc]

But you can’t have an RAAus registered aircraft, without being a member of.  RAAus

[BurnieM]

Not a big deal, seen this before.

These documents do not give the legal protection that some organisations think they do.

 

[jackc]

10 minutes ago, BurnieM said:

Not a big deal, seen this before.

These documents do not give the legal protection that some organisations think they do.

 

Very true but what you find somewhere in the wording will be if you breach the terms and conditions your membership could be cancelled. This happened to me with a bank account when I went to pay my gliding club membership by a bank transfer I got contacted by the fraud department saying I was transferring to a fraudulent account. I had breached the terms and conditions the bank cancelled my account and closed it.
That’s the worst of these kinds of things the other problem I have with all this sort of thing is no one changes these kinds of things without disadvantaging somebody somewhere and it’s usually the membership that will suffer. I’d like to think I’m very wrong and hope it is that way. 

[BurnieM]

Or, more likely, somebody in RAAus management thinks this will minimise legal action so they do it.

 

If somebody dies this is not going to stop their family from sueing RAAus. It may reduce the payout but the legal costs will still be extensive.

Best you can hope for is it may scare off frivilous legal actions.

 

[facthunter]

It's to Better cope with the reality of the situation you operate Under where LIABILITY is HIGH. This is CASA's responsibility to Manage, Ultimately. THEY have the Ultimate say. You can't deny that. Nev

[jackc]

Part of this is probably in response to the fact that RAAus have outsourced the MARAP process to a private company and that probably brings insurance problems with it as well. So part of the terms and conditions may be amended or change to consider that situation and no doubt anything in the future that.RAAus does.

The fact will simply be, you have no choice but to sign them even if you don’t like them or agree with them, because quite simply you won’t have membership if you do not agree and sign.

[turboplanner]

9 minutes ago, facthunter said:

It's to Better cope with the reality of the situation you operate Under where LIABILITY is HIGH. This is CASA's responsibility to Manage, Ultimately. THEY have the Ultimate say. You can't deny that. Nev

Why would you say that when it's very clear RAA is a self-administering organisation?

Edited Thursday at 02:00 AM by turboplanner

[FlyingVizsla]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

But you can’t have an RAAus registered aircraft, without being a member of.  RAAus

Yes you can.  An owner, or company does not have to be a member.  I know Grandparents who own the aircraft, but the son/grandy flies it.  People own one as an investment, but don't fly.  Medically unable to fly, they decide to cease being a member but still own an aircraft on the register.  Many reasons why the registered aircraft is not owned by a RAAus member.

[FlyBoy1960]

3 hours ago, jackc said:

But you can’t have an RAAus registered aircraft, without being a member of.  RAAus

yes you can.  a business can have a plane registered without the business being a member.  Just like you dont need a licence to register a motor vehicle.

 

Sorry i didnt see the earlier post.  My Bad

Edited Thursday at 04:20 AM by FlyBoy1960

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, BurnieM said:

Or, more likely, somebody in RAAus management thinks this will minimise legal action so they do it.

 

If somebody dies this is not going to stop their family from sueing RAAus. It may reduce the payout but the legal costs will still be extensive.

Best you can hope for is it may scare off frivilous legal actions.

 

You can sue away however wining a case will depend on culpability. ie it would have to shown that in some way RAA (or its representative) failed in its duty of care or erred in some other way that resulted in or contributed too the death/injury of the pilot. This will never be an easy gig, as every RAA pilot has acknowledged the inherent risks in flying, thereby casting doubt on any claim that involves decisions made or not by the pilot. Student pilots potentially have a greater chance in this, as they are by definition, not responsible for themselves or the aircraft.

[BurnieM]

Another way of looking at this is to suggest that RAAus knew the activity they were managing was dangerous and did not take adequate actions to minimise the risk. 

These things need to be worded very carefully to ensure you do not increase (rather than reduce) the legal risk to the organisation.

 

[jackc]

48 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

yes you can.  a business can have a plane registered without the business being a member.  Just like you dont need a licence to register a motor vehicle.

 

Sorry i didnt see the earlier post.  My Bad

In that case,  I can cease to be an RAAus member and register my Aircraft in my business name that has an ABN? 

[facthunter]

You're over thinking it. Under laws of STRICT LIABILITY the whole scene is farcical. Nev

[facthunter]

You'll NEVER GET it Turbs. Planes are Not race cars. Nev

[jackc]

Thinking a bit more about this, I think it might be off the back of the investigation on the Jabiru  from Mount Beauty crash, and the family wanting to sue RAAus.

But on top of that CASA, is  not impressed on the RAAus FUBAR allegedly withholding information from the Coroner’s  Inquest?

we will just have to wait and see what the terms and conditions are, and what they contain and work it out from there.

Even CASA could be behind all this,  and have instructed RAAus  to tighten up on the legal side of things to protect themselves.

[FlyBoy1960]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

In that case,  I can cease to be an RAAus member and register my Aircraft in my business name that has an ABN? 

You can do this BUT you still need to be a member to hold a licence (or whatever its now called) to fly said plane

[Blueadventures]

53 minutes ago, jackc said:

Thinking a bit more about this, I think it might be off the back of the investigation on the Jabiru  from Mount Beauty crash, and the family wanting to sue RAAus.

But on top of that CASA, is  not impressed on the RAAus FUBAR allegedly withholding information from the Coroner’s  Inquest?

we will just have to wait and see what the terms and conditions are, and what they contain and work it out from there.

Even CASA could be behind all this,  and have instructed RAAus  to tighten up on the legal side of things to protect themselves.

In Corners court people at times withhold information; in order to get the fullest of facts at times the Coroner will offer privilege as a way to gain information from a person before him.

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

You're over thinking it. Under laws of STRICT LIABILITY the whole scene is farcical. Nev

You're mixing up old ways with what has applied for nearly 45 years. Strict Liability has its place but the guys are on the right track above.

[jackc]

1 hour ago, Blueadventures said:

In Corners court people at times withhold information; in order to get the fullest of facts at times the Coroner will offer privilege as a way to gain information from a person before him.

I somehow don’t think this happened in RAAus case that was under investigation?

[Blueadventures]

30 minutes ago, jackc said:

I somehow don’t think this happened in RAAus case that was under investigation?

My comment was a general description of what has and may occur in Coroners courts; not about that one.

[Moneybox]

You can't blame RAAus for trying to protect themselves from the ridiculous liability issues that plague our society these times. We just can't help but follow the US in all this insanity. Why must somebody be to blame when another makes a mistake and injures themselves. People these times have lost their sense of personal responsibility. This is the type of behaviour that the greedy blood sucking lawyers and courts enjoy and use liberally to guarantee their income.

 

If the average person behaved responsibly and owned their mistakes we'd all be able to afford insurance for those few times we really need to call on it. How many man hours are wasted every day on SAFETY related documentation and time wasting practices that are just put in place to cover somebody for liability of another's accidents and mistakes. 🤮

[turboplanner]

11 minutes ago, Moneybox said:

You can't blame RAAus for trying to protect themselves from the ridiculous liability issues that plague our society these times. We just can't help but follow the US in all this insanity. Why must somebody be to blame when another makes a mistake and injures themselves. People these times have lost their sense of personal responsibility. This is the type of behaviour that the greedy blood sucking lawyers and courts enjoy and use liberally to guarantee their income.

 

If the average person behaved responsibly and owned their mistakes we'd all be able to afford insurance for those few times we really need to call on it. How many man hours are wasted every day on SAFETY related documentation and time wasting practices that are just put in place to cover somebody for liability of another's accidents and mistakes. 🤮

If you go to the public liability discussion, you'll see this didn't come from the USA, the precedent case is from Scotland in 1932. The only reason we're seeing this now is that RAA appear to be doing a clean up of procedures. It's not about transfer of blame; there has to be a duty of care and someone has to prove the duty of care was breached.

[coljones]

18 hours ago, Moneybox said:

You can't blame RAAus for trying to protect themselves from the ridiculous liability issues that plague our society these times. We just can't help but follow the US in all this insanity. Why must somebody be to blame when another makes a mistake and injures themselves. People these times have lost their sense of personal responsibility. This is the type of behaviour that the greedy blood sucking lawyers and courts enjoy and use liberally to guarantee their income.

 

If the average person behaved responsibly and owned their mistakes we'd all be able to afford insurance for those few times we really need to call on it. How many man hours are wasted every day on SAFETY related documentation and time wasting practices that are just put in place to cover somebody for liability of another's accidents and mistakes. 🤮

"Ridiculous"? If people took more care about their duty of care we would see much less blood over the floor. Industrial manslaughter laws have only emerged (much too late) because some people just don't give a sh*t about the consequences of their actions.