turboplanner

............convention, modesty, and patience and was only 142 cm tall, with ...............

.....accent which was much more deadly; just ask Winnie. The mixture of accents between the Captain who had perfected the Oxford accent, even though he didn't know what half the words meant, OT, whose Western Australian accent was like fingernails down a blackboard, and poor old Jack who'd been blindsided by his Indian student who was now calling him a "drop bear wonker" after the unfortunate takeoff attempt was causing rising angst among the participants, and then into the group, in a leather jacket with epaulettes walked..........

...........Vindaloo in the poo! "Oh my goodness me, Onsie said; "we are sending you around the bloody bend; you should have asked him to pull the stick back AFTER he start the bloody engine. My goodness me,and a thousand pardons, but you have to learn Indian."

This confused Jack, because he knew that even though OT was West Australian, so mostly Balinese, he was still considered Australian by many people in the East, and WA schools were required to teach English, so he sent an email back saying "WTF?"

OT replied "Goodness gracious me, I realise you are not informed of my present. I am being trained deciduously, Indian because I am having received job to train Indians in speaking English when they are driving trucks. We are having very unfortunate experience with customer in Forbes who said "Fill 'er Up and the attendan t grabbed his wife, but most urgent is CB language where we have to disguise Indian accent otherwise they call us........

However Brine just didn't understand the importance of pre-training in the emigrant country to prepare people for their first day in Australia which was strange becaise he should have known from his days in Dandenong that not doing this imposes massive costs on the Australian Taxpayer. For example at one stage in Dandenong the council forked out $40,000.00 to teach a group of Sudanese how to read a Melway street directory and considered it money well spent; the ratepayers didn't and booted the councillors out at the next election.

With this in mind we next move to a small airfield near Melbourne where anyone can teach anything to fly whatever, and the nouveau riche Indian truck drivers are lining up to get their pilot licences firstly to be able to wear epaulettes, and second;ly to become Air India Captains.

Jack Schatt is attempting to teach Gundur how to take off, but..............

.....strategy when our Hornorable late Chairman Mao killed all the birds in China , so aircraft would no be subject to bird strikes. He was clever man, but resulting insect plagues resulted in windscreens covered in bugs.

We have come a long way since then and this belt and road partnership with Chairman Don from Austria to make recerational engines for $500.00 fulfills the belt part.

Now we look at the road, and as late Chairman Mao also said "Journey down road 1000 miles long starts with first step"

Mao at times was silly man, and we builts cars instead of wearing shoe leather, but that another story.

And so the great road of Australia hit the drawing boards, but went straight through because Scotty from Marketing had stepped in and sold all of Victoria's roads to the Indians.

As he explained "we did that because 99% of truck trivers on temporary visas come from India and every second trucks stop is owned by Indians and that Modra chap makes great Japaddys, so out next step will be...............

.........regulations to the point where a householder who engaged in recreational flying had to sell his car, his giant smart TV/Coffee machine, his beer fridge his wifes Gucchi range and every brick in the house to the point where the familiy had to live in the septic tank. For many people this was no different to what'they'd been doing but for poodundan this represented a humiliating situation. They'd shortened the rear legs of the chains and bought some 1960s TV trays, and Dan's wife looked across and said "It's not so bad!" but Dan just curled his lip.

He'd tied down the gleaming new Jabiru J230, which is what all Thruster pilots pretend they are flying, to the septic tank; if a storm came and the aircraft was blown away, they were going with it. Dan was quite clever that way; he'd done the same thing with Victoria, so Victorians would never be in the same position at the Tasmanians and have to refer to people from the other States as Mainlanders, or start double headed tourist promotions so mainlanders would come and visit just in case they came across one and could use the phone to ...............

I wonder where "STOL" starts and ends today.

If you look up what stol means in the early days it was anything less than 1500ft. A j3 or 3 with a Franklin or the real power house, the Conti 65 armstrong start were all classed as stol. But they really relied on the curvature of the earth to get airborne.

I would say that ANY of our RAAus planes will qualify. My SP 500 at MAUW gets of and over 50' at 400m. If I am solo and half fuel take off is 300m @ 50' and I can put it down in slightly less, tho that scares the Sturt Highway traffic a bit.

Strangely we seem to need to take off and land 2 to 3 times in that distance nowadays.

My advice is to look at the book specs, add a little bit and you will still be under the old stol.

BTW, a lot of pilots don't help themselves coz they build a heavy plane looking for that perfect paint finish then put every instrument they can think of that is worthy of IFR, then have backup instruments as well.

Keep it light, keep it simple, look outside- not at your wizbang panel and enjoy the ride.

Ken

STOL implies an above average power to weight ratio and an above average pilot who has received training in the pilot actions and reactions which may be required at any time.

I was sucked in by this STOL talk myself until I started training in a Jabiru LSA55 in crosswinds etc, i.e. normal flying operations where you may not be lined up in ideal conditions for a STOL landing.

For a start, the brakes in most RA aircraft have a lot less capacity than many GA aircraft.

Prior to that I'd decided to buy a Savannah kit and use the paddock next door for an airfield.

Then I started checking actual touchdown points vs the theoretical right on the start of the strip, and stopping within the manufacturer's specified distance. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, The slippery RA machines that perform so fast also need to land quite a bit faster than the stated stall speed in typical Melbourne off seasons.

So while I agree with most of what you say, I'd caution new pilots to get in the aircraft and fly in all conditions before judging something as a STOL, or more likely, an aircraft to buy that you can land anywhere.

I'm only raising this because we went through the same discussion on a series of long and interesting threads, and pretty soon after that the Sav owners went off in the direction of ripping out the slats and fitting DGs to get higher cruise speeds, so not point in another generation of flyers wasting their money because the old advice is next to impossible to find.

But we don't hear too much either of too much fantastic plastic breaking up.

There's a photo of one floating around South Australia of one after a forced landing with the nose and engine completely snalled off and on the ground after the A pillars failed in tension.

The viiew is from the front and looks straight at the empty seats.

The problem is that members are only members in order to comply with the law.

That's true for all associations where governments have dismantled their old prescriptive structures and allow activities to continue subject to being a member of a slef administering association, so the "problem" you are inferring is that members won't step up, join committees, vote etc.

My solution to that is, if you don't want to attend meetings then don't complain about our decisions, and if the decisions are fair you will have a dream Association. Of course if, as you previously mentioned you haved a bad group or dictator at the top, then you do need the members to get off their bums and show up to vote.

If and when the "bad members" are actually bad or simply pains in the ass is sufficient to deny them compliance with the AVIATION law then the door is open to vindictive, unsubstantiated behaviour to enable the expulsion of a member.

Sitting as a Tribunal Chairman was one of the most educational experiences I've ever had. The Tribunal hears the appeal of a member who has been given a sanction by the compliance and enforcement people. Sometimes people who have screamed their innocence are caught out in the appeal by a video or photo and everyone is stunned. After one of those cases the life of the party subsequently went on to threaten to kill his association secretary, so you might be experiencing bad behavious from one section of your association, but believe me there are othere association where the opposite is going on.

If you have a good constitution and good members you'll usually have a good experience.

It is a different matter if the issue is NOT aviation related, but in an organisation in which members have consistently displayed their apathy it is hard to see how a "bad member" situation could arise. When does open discourse about the management or other get to the situation where "the organisation has been brought into disrepute" for example? In-fighting in this type of organisation is part of the internal politics.

"bringing the association into disrepute" is a common activity of association wars, mainly because it's in the model constitutions and no one has bothered to set up a compliance and enforcement policy, so it's the only weapon in the locker. It's rare to see that happen but there have been classic cases in sports etc. e.g. the Presdident being convicted for doping a dog.

"If the so called "bad member"'s behaviour is aviation related it should be CASA who removes his flying privileges, not a private organisation who is concerned about its reputation. Having lost those privileges, continued membership will probably no be an option for the member as there is no reason to be a member."

If you're quoting from an organisation that doesn't know what self administration is then of course there are going to be bad decisions and actions where it will backfire on the people who got out of their depth.

In the case of recreational flying Airservices, ATSB and CASA all have prescriptive regulations which you must comply with as soon as you open the gate and stand airside.

Those bodies have their own compliance and enforcement systems, so you don't have to double up on them. An example is the CASA ramp checks which can take place at an RAA evene.

That leaves the Exemptions you have been granted, and compliance of your actions.

A good equivalent to study is the Sporting Shooters Association, where you have to comply with the prescriptive Firearms Act for your State, and on the way to the gun club you can be pulled over for a speeding ticket, and if the cop sees a gun not locked up you'll have committed a firearms offence and get a fine.

When you get to the range you'll be trained and checked by an array of officials who are administering safety at the range.

In any event, the disciplinary document, seeks to deny human rights such as the right to silence, and consequently the rule against self incrimination. These rules apply to civil as well as criminal arenas.

I presume you are talking about a disciplinary document which you've seen which is possibly illegal.

The associations compliance and enforcement policy cannot deny the human rights you referred to above, so when its drafted the wording must be legal.

CASA should refuse to approve the document whilst the offensive policies form part of the document.

The whole point of CASA allowing self administration is for the people involved in it to assume liability.

There would be no point in CASA saying, "you can managhe it any way you like but we are not going to allow a,b,c,d,e,f,g," - they be back standing beside you as a defendant if they did that.

...........people who took to sea without copious amounts of broth and chittles, and instruments of discipline. His ships were the pride of the Tasmanian Navy; spick and span, and receiving a deep clean every day. The whole crew wore masks. This wasn't to protect against infection, but to avoid being singled out by the Lieutenant for a vicious whipping for the slightes offence, such as not getting the sails up fast enough or not knowing the difference between True North and Magnetic North. The night Lt Andrews sailed into Flinders Isand was a good case in point. The bow was stuck in Flinders Island and the stern was .......

......possible taking into account the direction of the wind off Bass Strait, and the direction of.......................

Sorry, I couldn't delete #54 and my time expired for writing the rest so please disregard it:

I'm confused by the foregoing conflicting statements.

"In our case, as an incorporated association, provided members were following the rules they had the protection of the deep pockets of the ACT Department of Justice."

In a case where a member or official has been operating within the Constitution and rules of an organisation, he/she is protected by the ACT DoJ or State equivalent if incorporated in as State [RAA Inc was incorporated in the ACT]. I'll leave you to go on the DoJ website under Incorporations to see how this works.

"You run it yourself and if it fails you fail which is the way it should be, so there's no point in trying to paint it as something that should be run or supervised by government, because the very essence of Incorporations is that they are self-administering."

DoJ is there to provide a financial safety net, not to run the Association, so the first essence of running it is to elect people who care about the member base and do the best for them, and there are literally tens of thousands of Associations around Australia where that happens.

Where that is not happening, the base, suggested model, Constitution provides a way to clean up bad eggs. You are free to expand on the constitution, so if you are smart you spend a lot of time building a fair and reasonable Constitution designed for your operation. That can extend to safety processes, safety officials, compliance and enforcement, sanctions/penaties/suspensions, and a Tribunal to ensure Human Rights, and more.

Oppression of members by an association run by an iron ring of not uncommon. Trouble is most of the oppressed just move on. Those who seek assistance are forced to fund legal expenses even when there are blatant breaches of the law.

No they are not, but the first step if for the affected members to vote them out. Where they have been corrupt and have managed to amend the constitution to suit their purposes, if you have enough member support there are process where you can sack committee members, amend the constitution back to a democratric base and fix those problems, but you have to have the knowledge of the regulations and processes.

Breaches of the law should be prosecuted by the State, and if it is inconvenient for the regulators to administer the law then amend the law or abolish it all together.

Effectively the States have done exactly that; abolished laws and closed Departments down so new laws didn't spring up e.g. Department of Labour and Industry in Victoria and their interstate equivalents, and in these cases there are no longer prescribed laws for safety standards, compliance and certification by inspectors etc.

Turbs, it appears as though you have always been on the inner circle of well run associations and perhaps it would be wise to consider what happens when an association, or similar, ceases to be run for the benefit of members, or in someways contravenes, say, the human rights laws as the RAA members disciplinary policy does (cant remember the actual name of the policy).

I usually was called in the remove the inner circle, but had to restructure a few Associations. Each case is a little different, but the bottom line is there has to be enough numbers who will step forward and vote at each step of the reconstruction. People of this site will remember the frantic posts before RAA Inc was closed down in favour of a company, all of them talking about RAA have=ing outgrown Cricket club status. There weren't enough people stepping forward to oppose them, and of course once they got what they wanted they disappeared. You can't work while there's apathy. A disciplinary policy is essential to RAA because otherwise you just have fresh air, and one or two bad members can destroy your association.

I'm confused by the foregoing conflicting statements.

"You run it yourself and if it fails you fail which is the way it should be, so there's no point in trying to paint it as something that should be run or supervised by government, because the very essence of Incorporations is that they are self-administering."

In our case, as an incorporated association, provided members were following the rules they had the protection of the deep pockets of the ACT Department of Justice.

Oppression of members by an association run by an iron ring of not uncommon. Trouble is most of the oppressed just move on. Those who seek assistance are forced to fund legal expenses even when there are blatant breaches of the law.

Breaches of the law should be prosecuted by the State, and if it is inconvenient for the regulators to administer the law then amend the law or abolish it all together.

Turbs, it appears as though you have always been on the inner circle of well run associations and perhaps it would be wise to consider what happens when an association, or similar, ceases to be run for the benefit of members, or in someways contravenes, say, the human rights laws as the RAA members disciplinary policy does (cant remember the actual name of the policy).

First the quiz - where is YMBD?

.......Downside Hall floor. Plenty of people have commented about the stains on the DH floor, with stories that it was used as a field hospital for returniong WW1 and WW1 soliders, but not many people know, that the hall is used every year at duck opening to divide up the shoot and by the time all the stubbies have been down and the ducks collected, no one is in the mood to clean the hall, so it stays like that until the "Miss Kapooka" judging, when a frantic working bee takes place to get the smell and feathers out and most of the blood washed off and then it starts .......

Got Foxtel (Auster) around 1996 and was shocked by the strong American accent that came across with all the American content. Now 20 odd years later I do not even notice the difference. With all the US content our language is slowly migrating from the good old aussie accent to the now international (American) version of english without even noticing it youall. I even believe some schools teach "Z" as ZEE. What next!

Given that I'm a reluctant Grade 3 teacher in 17 minutes time, I can tell you unequivocally that in the Victorian Education curriculum Z is pronouced Zed, but aitch is pronounced Haitch.

Obviously you have never tried to get an association to play by its laws let alone the law. The bureaucrats approach is "go away and sort out the problem among yourselves". So individual members are forced to go to court to seek redress. Even then the courts are loath to interfere witness the High Court's decision in the case of John Setka and the Labor party.

Given that I've been President, Vice President Secretary or Committee Member of about 30 Associations and currently President of two, you would be a bit wide of the mark. At one stage I was President of an organisation which had about 20 Associations as members and we saw the very best and very worst in that lot. Every one of those Associations played by the law with the exception of a few individuals who were turfed out from time to time.

You don't start an independent Association expecting a government department to run it for you; you run it yourself and if it fails you fail which is the way it should be, so there's no point in trying to paint it as something that should be run or supervised by government, because the very essence of Incorporations is that they are self-administering.

Don't forget, these are the same people who pronounce "nuclear" as "noo-kal-ear", and aluminium as "aloo-min-um".

 

I guess, despite the accents and local terminology and differing pronunciations, we can at least usually understand each other. But I had a Scot, a parts interpreter, on the phone the other day - and I couldna' unnerstan' the laddie!

 

This, despite my mother being Scottish!! She was always surprised that people would still say, "Oh, you're Scottish", as soon as she spoke, even after she'd been living in Australia for 60 years.

If you'd asked him to snedc an email you would have understood him perfectly.

Unless they opt to add in some Scottish slang the Scots use exactly the same grammar as we do; you wouldn't pick one on this forum.

...........routine things like loops and wingovers and sh!t, he will always do a dry run over the DH before ..............

.....when a Vietnamese saw him leaning on the letterbox, came to a stop and stepped out of his Chevrolet Silverado and said "Hey!" [Translation for the oldies: not as "Stop or I'll shoot" but the New York Greeting] "Do you want to sell? I can give you cash right now".

Cappy drew himself up to his full height, which didnd't take long and .................

In summary:

You must get multiple identical weighings to have confidence in the result.

I learnt that the aircraft wheel has to come down on the scales without any sideways movement to get an accurate weighing.

I have heard of others rolling the aircraft on and off the scales. I have not tried this.

I had to set up a race car accurately with each wheel taking a different weight per cent. If I adjusted the suspension for the right rear to be heavier, I could get oversteer, provided I checked where that weight had come from.

I found that the centre of each tyre footprint was the critical down factor and it gave different results from the centre to the outer area of the scales because the top face depressed slighly, so fitted 12 mm T&G hardwood wheel pads to the top of the scales. That fixed that.

I always centralised the steering straight ahead because that's when a steer wheel is protruding down the most.

I found, as you did that the tyre footprint centrelines move around with deflection of the suspension due to the suspension geometry and this thrwos the weights off substantially.

I didn't weigh 1 wheel because there is a leverage/weight transfer between it and the other jacked wheels.

I mounted the scales on ballrace castors which allowed each suspension to travel through its own arcs and the tyre footprints to move where they needed to be, and I had a cross reference to all up weight and where the weight was going wheel by wheel.

There is a corollary in local government. The was a time when only property owners could vote in local government elections or get elected to councils. After decades of universal suffrage, one can only ask who does local government really serve, its corporate self or its residents?

That corollary is true with a limited company.

It isn't so with an incorporated association. Incorporated Associations were designed specifically for volunteer-run organisations in the post-prescriptive era.

• In our case, as an incorporated association, provided members were following the rules they had the protection of the deep pockets of the ACT Department of Justice.
  
• The volunteers who formed the Committee (in RAA the grandiose name board members) were close to the grass roots around Australia all the time.
  

With the limited company structure the support is equal to the money in the bank, and the relationship with the members is much the same as a business and its customers but without the equaliser of competition.

......the magnate Isaac who had abandoned his former friends and was on board his Motor Cruiser headed for Tahiti intending .........

.......the sock puppet treatment and invent half a dozen "characters" to pick on him while conducting conversations and arguments with each other.

However, once again the WA disease known as "lagging behind the wised men from the east" had hit OT. Turbo came to the defence of his long time friend Cappy and said "You're wearing a Chinese T shirt OneTrack, you eat Chinese bacon every morning which is laced with an anti-cognisance serum, you write on a Chinese computer, under Chinese lights, yet you condemn our loyal friend Cappy. " Pulling out a dog eared old copy of a ship he continued "Cappy has not drifted off avrefs; not many people know the Same tractor can be harrowing on a Friday and flying the family to the Birdsville races on a Saturday. It, in fact, has better flying performance than a Drifter."

OneTrack snorted in derision but Turbo continued "TE licensed Cappy to make some minor modifications (avref) to the tractor which enable it to create lift with it's giant rotor wheels, using the rotor principle invented by Leonardo Da Vinci. When the wheels reach a certain speed, according to Bernouli II (Ben was a friend of Da) a high pressure zone is produced under the rotor and that pressure is taken from the top which leaves a low pressure area and we all know that high travels to low, or at least we at TE do because we sold Cappy the license to use on the Same.

Once again One Track felt the cold afternoon Doctor around his ankles and said .............

.....make a Yuan or two and win a post on the staff with his new friend Helen on the staff of the Chinese Embassy in Canberra.

Helen had thought Turbo would be a pushover but quickly found out he was listed as a preferred tea maker at the Russian Embassy and his sights were set on RedCap as Cappy was known to the KGB who ......