old man emu

Thanks for the pat on the back, Scotty. I can usually supply most commonly used items of hardware on the day I get the order.

 

I'm now a Spruce and Speciality Dealer, so I get a bit of a discount on my stock purchases, which then allows me to work from a lower price. I don't whack on a massive mark-up, so my prices are usually pretty low. You can always ask me for a quote, and if I'm too dear for you, I lose the sale, no worries.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

Louis,

 

Thanks. That's just the ticket.

 

OME

 

 

I showed this M/R to my boss and he has agreed to start using it.

 

He would like to see the following changes:

 

1. Box lines thinner and in black, not gray.

 

2. A box where we can enter a number to let us trace the M/Rs we issue.

 

The second point is important to a commercial operation such as ours as we service a number of RAA airplanes belonging to different owners, so it is important to us to be able to know the order in which M/Rs have been issued. It is also important to owners as these M/Rs form part of the airplane's operational history.

 

Could you make these changes and post the amended document as a pdf file?

 

OME

 

 

Didn't you know OME - over night the two halves will grow into two complete egg beaters - tomorrow there'll be double the Devil's spawn...

Looks like I'll have to plant some dragon's teeth to ward off the Devil's Spawn.

 

OME

 

 

I'm sorry that Natfly wasn't the business success you might have hoped for. Will you be putting the same merchandising effort into Natfly 2013, or will you just go there to soak up the atmosphere?

 

OME

 

 

Yes, it was a Cabri with Instructor and student on board. I believe that it was based at Bankstown. It was a simple training accident. The best part is that there is now one less of the Devils' spawn to be rejected skyward by Mother Earth.

 

OME

 

 

This afternoon a two seater helicopter broke its back at Camden Airport. Two persons on board, at least one received stretcher attention after evacuating the aircraft. No fire.

 

I can't say much more because we were all heads down and tails up in the hangar when it happened. First we knew about it was when the procession of red & blue lights headed onto the airfield.

 

OME

 

 

You are sooooooo correct, Nev.

 

Aviation in Australia can only advance if the current role of CASA is abandoned, and our laws rewritten to have CASA operate under the same policy as the FAA.

 

That won't prevent CASA from being a regulator, but it will let it get more involved in the promotion of aviation as a remedy for the Tyranny of Distance that our great Nation suffers under.

 

OME

 

 

I had a quick glance at the Aircraft Maintenance Technician's Code, and it has some interesting points.

 

The one that hit me over the head the hardest was that of continued training. My first thought on glancing over it was that here is an area where CASA, with all its talk of promoting aviation safety, falls hopelessly short of the mark.

 

More later.

 

OME

 

 

Perhaps we should always keep in mind how others speak of the pilot who suffered a terminal case of Get-home-itis:

 

"What a dickhead!"

 

Who would want that as an epitaph?

 

OME

 

 

I'm a very tired Old Emu.

 

I left Camden at 7:00am on Saturday morning and arrived in Warwick, Qld at 6:00pm (ESDT) that evening. After a wash and a feed, I went to meet the bloke who was selling me the bike. Had a long yarn and a couple of cleansing ales before heading back to the motel to try to sleep. Like that happened. I was like a 5-year old on Christmas Eve.

 

Woke up at Sparrow Fart the next morning; had the obligatory Macca's breakfast and went back to the seller's place where the trade was done. Then went on a short ride to get the feel of the bike. Riding that bike is better than sex (and I'll be able to go riding every day). Then we loaded the bike into my ute and I set off at 10:30am and drove until 5:00pm.

 

I spent the night at my mother's house and had dinner with her and some relatives. Up at Sparrow's again this morning and set off at 9:00am to finish the drive home. After arriving home at 3:00pm, unloading the bike and returning the ute to work, I finally managed to sit down for tea, and to watch some TV.

 

I've driven over 1600 Ks since Saturday morning. I'm sick of the sight of the cabin of the ute, and I hope the Boss doesn't sent me into Bankstown on Wednesday to pick up parts.

 

So now I'm ready for bed. Tomorrow I'll wash the bugs off the bike, fuel him up, and go do some practice so I can ride him to work on Wednesday.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

I agree, a good job.

 

Is there any legal reason for not using this M/R? I notice that RAA M/Rs are not numbered like GA ones.

 

Just as an aside, I find it strange that the M/R has a column to record the number of landings. There is a reason for such a record in planes with retractable undercarriage, but can anyone name an RAA type airplane whose undercarriage has a limit on the number of landings?

 

And what a pain to try to remember how many landings were done during a session of touch & goes. And if you do a shocker with a couple of bounces, do you record each bounce as a separate landing?

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

I thought you old guys used talk back radio?

Nah!

 

We use flyback pigeons.

 

OME

 

 

Dutchroll,

 

I will fight to the death to preserve your right to your opinion. Both being gentlemen, I think we can agree to disagree, and that will be the end of it. You are an ATSB supporter, I am not. That having been said, it looks like we will have to discuss ways to reach a middle ground.

 

When does the ATSB step in?

They are advised by Police ASAP

 

Do CASA get involved?

I believe quite late in the process

 

Who releases bodies and into whose charge do they go?

ATSB advise local police that the bodies can be released (taken away) from the accident site because the ATSB has recorded sufficient evidence involving them at the scene. From the moment of death, the body is in the charge of the State Coroner. The ATSB say when the wreckage can be released (removed from the scene). After it leaves the scene, the chain of possession of evidence becomes a bit murky. The ATSB doesn't have secure premises to hold complete aircraft, so they are often just stuck in the back of some convenient hangar. the ATSB will remove components for examination, but they don't retain them thereafter. They are usually returned to the custody of the Investigating Police Officer.

 

What do the police investigate?

The Police investigation carried out on behalf of the Coroner aims to identify the deceased; the time, date, and place of death, and if the circumstances of the death suggest that living person/s did, or omitted to do, any act that could have lead to the death.

 

If any air law has been broken doesn't CASA lay the charges?

Yes. CASA approves the laying of charges, but if charges were laid, it would be the Investigating Police Officer who would act as the Informant, and charges would be laid under Commonwealth Law, which State Police are permitted to do.

 

And what if any charges can the police lay if say pilot survives and pax deceased.

CASA only control the laying of charges for breaches of the Federal legislation relation to aviation. Based on the evidence obtained, State Police could lay charges ranging from murder to "by negligent act cause actual bodily harm". In other words, virtually the whole gamut of the Assault offences. Why don't they? Because historically there has not been the legal experience within the Police Forces to overcome Society's impression that airplane are inherently unsafe, and will crash without warning, and that if you fly in anything other than on an RPT service, you are taking your life into your own hands. I would hope that now that more experienced police investigators are looking at serious and fatal aviation incidents, they State Police will begin to prosecute those whose actions on the ground, or in the air lead to untimely deaths.

 

Can the Police/CASA use any info from ATSB report to lay charges?

Yes, but only after the ATSB report has been approved by someone in the ATSB who has the authority to do so.

 

Police, ATSB and CASA all report to Coroner?

Yes; Yes and not necessarily.

 

RAAus aircraft goes in with fatalities. Pretty much same Qs

Not sure, but I would assume the answers are the same.

with the addition of when and if the RAAus get involved in lue of CASA?

It would seem that RAAus gets involved when the ATSB says it is not interested.

 

Their powers or limitations?

The assistance of the RAAus would be received with open arms by any wise Police Investigator.

 

Report if any recognised by Coroner?

The Coroner will accept all evidence placed before the Court, and consider its value in light of the qualifications and techniques used by the witness in gathering information given as evidence.

 

As stated earlier it seems the ATSB will only get involved if public attention is drawn to accident or circumstance. So is it all left up to the police only? Ozzie

Yep.Old Man Emu

 

 

As I said earlier, I was able to suggest to the State Coroner for NSW that an Aviation Accident Investigation Officer be appointed to liaise with local police investigating a fatal air incident. That suggestion was made nearly 10 years ago. Since then, it appears that the suggestion was acted upon by several Police Forces and there are now Police Accident Investigators trained to deal with aviation incidents. That story from the RAAF investigator could well have been true back in the day. Now police have been instructed in crime scene preservation, and I doubt if that sort of thing would be permitted nowadays.

 

You clearly do not understand the legal process if you think that Police lay charges in such serious matters as manslaughter without having checked the evidence thoroughly. That's why there is a Coroner's Inquest. The evidence is examined by a Court and the Coroner can decide whether or not some person has a case to answer or not, and whether a jury, properly instructed, is likely to return a verdict. (Note I said "verdict", not "guilty verdict" or even "not guilty verdict". In other words, the evidence it sufficient for a jury to make a firm decision.)

 

And what special skills does the ATSB bring to an investigation? I'm not a LAME, but I know what to look for in logbooks, fuel records, aircraft useage records etc. I can engage a highly experienced engine or airframe engineer, metallurgist, avionics technician etc to examine an airplane. As for statements from involved parties, well, years of police investigations have taught me when to recognise that I am being given a load of crap. If I was to caution a person about self-incimination, I'd still get 90% of the story that I could accept as valid. The physical evidence would give me the other 10%. As a matter of fact, I found that interviewing people who might have committed and offence, and victims as well, was often a necessary formality as their versions often did not tally with the physical evidence.

 

My opinion is that the ATSB try bluff and bluster to stand over Police in these investigations, and their final product does little to advance air safety.

 

I think that the ATSB is as useless as a fob pocket in a pair of budgie smugglers.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

How to justify owning an airplane:

 

Go ask your friends and colleagues how much they spend on their pastimes.

 

The motto of the Baby Boomers: "You earned it, so you spend it. Leave nothing more than it costs to bury you.

 

OME

 

 

Matt,

 

Fly out of the valley. There's a big, beautiful country on the other side of the hills.

 

OME

 

 

Matt,

 

Your wondering will be solved when you do your first Nav Ex, and get away from the familiar sights of the training area and circuit.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

and when you are old you can tell your grand kids about all the things you didn't do because you where sensible.

That's the crux of the matter, isn't it? Are we going to choose to be steady and sensible, live to a ripe old age and die having done nothing, or are we going to be reckless, devil-may-care, still live to a ripe old age, and be able to tell St Peter that we took the gift of life; shook the stuffing out of it and are ready to spend Eternity thanking the Good Lord for the gift?

 

The answer to the question: "At what point, or is there such a thing, does it become apparent that it will be cheaper in the long run to purchase an aeroplane as opposed to hiring? ", there is no correct answer. There is a logical, mathematical solution to the question, but there is no spiritual answer to it.

 

All you can do is acknowledge your addiction, but try to manage the financial side of supporting it so that you keep your house and family, and don't have to resort to breaking into houses and stealing plasma TVs to get those highs you need.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

Consider the number of hours you intend to fly each year. A reasonable annual estimate would be 25 hours. At $200/hr that's $5000. Allow that an average price for a two place plane is $35,000. That is equal to seven years' flying.

 

If you look at the fixed and variable costs of owning and operating a plane, you could need to set aside $1-2,000 per year.

 

If you always rented an airplane, you could invest $35,000 at 5% per annum, that gives you $1750. Plus, say $1750 from fixed/variable expenses you would not have to pay. That comes to $3,500. Another $1500 (or $30 per week) and you've got your 25 hours' flying AND your capital as well.**

 

You should also remember that when you first get into flying, you want to get in the air as much as possible, but unfortunately, Life has its ways of getting your feet stuck on the ground. When that happens, you end up with a depreciating asset costing you money, and a bitter heart. So, unless you are footloose, fancy free, and independently wealthy, stay away from purchasing a plane on your own. And unless you can have a all-encompassing partnership agreement drawn up, beware of syndicates. It is a sad truism that if you want to make a small fortune in aviation, start out with a big one.

 

Having said that, geez I wish I owned my own plane!

 

Old Man Emu

 

** That's a bit of a falsehood. If you didn't own the plane, you still have to set aside $3250, or $62.50 per week, to add to the $1750 p.a. interest to make up the $5000 for 200 hours' flying.

 

 

disclosure of a draft report to a court by anyone is punishable by 2 years imprisonment under the Transport Safety Investigation Act.

what the ATSB are not allowed to tell people until the final report is approved.

To me, that provides the ATSB with an excuse for sitting on an investigation, and for political interference in the approval of the report.

 

For what it's worth, I think they (the ATSB) do a pretty good job. There is no public investigation bureau anywhere in the world (including the police) which is resourced enough to investigate everything all the time and have a final report out whenever anyone wants it.

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with you. The ATSB says that it does the best investigations. I don't believe that it has the numbers of investigations to back this up. Police (and here I refer to specialist accident investigators) are doing more investigations in greater detail each year than does the ATSB. Further, Police are required to complete these investigations in a timely manner. If the Investigating officer is dragging the chain, the kicks in the bum start from the State Coroner and work their way down.

 

Police have access to the same range of experts as the ATSB to have technical investigations carried out. And since police are working to a deadline, they see to it that things get done. The ATSB investigators aren't gods. In fact some of them don't have as much experience as people who make a living maintaining and using airplanes.

 

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to disband the ATSB investigations section, but provide it with the results of professional forensic investigations, and from those results the ATSB can produce its draft reports for the Minister.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

I think that there was some documentation given to the Coroner, but getting it was like pulling teeth. Since I was not involved in an open hearing, I don't know what the Coroner saw.

 

I'm glad that the NSW Police have moved ahead in this area.

 

I can't say why the ATSB stays away from most RAA incidents. As I said, CASA is charged with promoting aviation safety, ergo so its agencies should be interested. I'd say that it's all financial.

 

Looks like yo got some bitch slappin' to be doing, dude.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

Motz,

 

At one time I was THE Accident Reconstructionist for the NSW Police. That was after completing studies in the USA, and receiving certification there as a Traffic Accident Reconstructionist. Due to internal politics, the standards of the current NSW Police Accident Investigation Squad are just coming up to par with those of Victoria and Queensland.

 

I was involved in the investigation of a fatal crash at Camden several years ago (the Victa with the woman pilot). The ATSB came, investigated, and sat on their findings. Since I was the Investigation Leader, reporting to the State Coroner, I expected to get a statement of findings from the ATSB to include in my report. No such luck!

 

As a result, the Coroner originally made a finding that the crash was accidental, the fault laying with the pilot. That finding was made without a formal Inquest. By the way, my enquiries did not lead me to the opinion that any other person was culpable in the death as it was a matter of fuel exhaustion, and everyone knows that the pilot has the final responsibility for the fuel load on board.

 

Naturally, the family was not happy with that finding and pushed for a full inquest. The matter was reinvestigated by local detectives (I was retired by then). I don't know the final result.

 

Following the initial decision of the Deputy State Coroner, I discussed with him the need for the Police to establish a Police Aviation Fatality Liaison Officer to assist local police in the investigation of aviation fatalities in their Patrols. Because I have been out of the Police Force for nearly six years now, I don't know if that position has been created. Something similar seems to exist in Queensland.

 

The investigation of a death is the responsibility of the Coroner, and if the Coroner wants something done as part of that investigation, it gets done. Therefore, if the investigators want to engage an expert (such as a LAME who has good experience with some facet of the airplane involved in the incident) all they have to do is ask the Coroner to direct that the expert be engaged to carry out and report on the necessary investigation. The cost then come out of the Police Force's Special Investigations budget.

 

OK. That's support for my argument that Police should investigate all aviation serious or fatal incidents, just as they do for road and water transport.

 

Should we get rid of the ATSB? I can't think of a good reason to say yeah or nay. Don't forget that the ATSB's area of interest covers ALL transport accidents. Since rail and sea transport accidents are rare, it is probably contacted more frequently about aviation accidents. The ATSB is more interested in public transport than private transport.

 

Why are ATSB investigations a closed book? Well they shouldn't be. Any material produced by a servant of the government in the course of their duties is public domain, unless it affects national security. They say that the role of the ATSB does not cover the laying of blame. I agree. That is the role of the Justice system. However, the ATSB is an investigative branch of the Government, and its investigation reports and investigators should be open to scrutiny in the Justice system.

 

The real fly in the ointment is CASA. Unlike the US of A's FAA whose charter is to promote aviation, CASA's charter is to promote aviation safety. Its record in that field is appalling. Our elected representatives (all parties) have made laws and regulations for aviation in this country. Included in those laws and regulations are penalties for breaking them. CASA has a woeful record of prosecuting breaches, no matter how blatant they are. CASA is like Ferdinand, the bull with the delicate ego, who would rather sit and smell flowers than fight a matador as he was bred to do.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

Cost, Cost, Cost!

 

Yes, any investigation involves cost, and as our analytical techniques multiply, costs rise. And let's look at an investigation as a team effort.

 

Say we are investigating a fatal incident. The Coroner has the ultimate responsibility for the investigation. The Coroner may, and for practical reasons does, delegate the investigation to the State Police. A Lead Police Investigator is appointed to lead the investigation, and that person delegates tasks to a number of other specialists, be it photographers, mapping specialists, aviation experts (like parachute packers in the case of a parachuting incident), airframe and systems experts, chemists, metallurgists etc, etc. The Lead Police Investigator then collates all the factual information for presentation at a Coronial Inquest. There the facts are subject to scrutiny and argument until the Coroner is in a position to make a finding. From then on, the Criminal and Civil jurisdictions may or may not have a run, using the facts brought out by the investigation. Nobody said that an accident investigation should be done and dusted in a week or two.

 

What we should be protesting is the failure of the ATSB to be open with its findings, and for CASA to stop being a timid mouse when it comes to enforcing the Laws of this country.

 

As far as I am concerned, I wouldn't entrust the ATSB to investigate a crash of crockery. And I have been a Lead Police Investigator on a couple of aviation fatalities.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

Well, the request has been made for someone to start a thread to discuss whether or not the ATSB is the best organisation to investigate fatal and injury crashes involving RAA aircraft.

 

Elsewhere I had voiced my opinion that the ATSB's investigation of fatal and injury crashes is secretive, uninformative and not up to the desired standard.

 

I have also voiced the opinion that the ATSB is a financially restricted, insufficiently competent organisation to carry out the important task of gathering and presenting the facts of a crash incident to those authorities charged with determining the causes of deaths arising from aviation crashes, and who have the ability to make recommendations aimed at preventing like incidents in the future.

 

I have voiced the opinion that the specialist Accident Investigation Units of the several State Police Forces are more experienced in investigating crashes involving the various forms of powered transport, and that this experience is readily transferred to the particular needs of an investigation into an aircraft crash.

 

I clarify this opinion by saying that the Police are the best organisations we have to gather facts arising from a crash, but the determination of any culpability lies in the hands of one or more of a Coroner's Court, a Criminal Court, or a Civil Court.

 

Please enter the discussion.

 

Old Man Emu