Fuel Price

[skippydiesel]

I guess we are all concerned about the price/availabity of fuel. What it has suddenly risen to and what it might go to.

 

For most on this Forum its the price of ULP and Avgas. To get to/from the airfield & then fly the aircraft and what of refueling during a trip away?

 

A major influence in fuel pricing, that has always intrigued me, is the cost of diesel.

Diesel underpins  EVERY aspect of our lives (including petrol cost), yet its price rarely seems to be of significant concern to the general public.

 

Our Government taxes diesel at about 43%/Litre (not an insignificant amount). Therefore this tax is effectively influencing every aspect of our lives, yet there is no suggestion, from the Gov of reducing/suspending this  during the current fuel emergency.

 

• The consumption of petrol can be significantly reduced, without too much impact/pain on the wellbeing of the public and econamy.
• The consumption of diesel can not be significantly reduced, without severe societal/economic ramifications. 
• The Gov stand to have diesel tax revenue windfall,with the rise in the cost of diesel.

 

So far the Gov has toyed with the idea of;

• a national reduction in speed limits, as a way of conserving fuel  - predominantly petrol ie little impact on diesel consumption/cost.
• asking (directing?) people to work from home - another petrol reduction initiative.
• car pooling - reduction in petrol consumption.
• reducing some services  (eg weekly rubbish collection) - at last a potential reduction of diesel consumption

 

I suggest all Forum meters contact their Federal (&State) local members to express their concern about the price of diesel.

 

FYI - How the price of diesel is arrived at in Australia;

 

ttps://www.aip.com.au/sites/default/files/download-files/2020-06/Facts%20about%20Diesel%20Prices%20and%20the%20Australian%20Fuel%20Market_1.pdf

 

😈

[Thruster88]

It's 43 cents per litre not 43% so no wind fall there, consumption may even drop. Yes the government is getting more gst from non business users. 

 

Lucky to have my on farm diesel storage full before the netanyahu trump shit show started so planting no problem, harvest, who knows.

Edited Wednesday at 12:25 AM by Thruster88

[440032]

Isn't it interesting that as soon as something happens, petrol and diesel prices go up - even though no new stock from overseas manufactured at higher price has miraculously arrived at the station overnight.

AVGAS at my airfield (via a third party provider) has not gone up one cent, and we had a significant quantity delivery just a week ago.

All three fuels were already in the country, paid for at the lower price.

It is clear that petrol stations are just price gouging - Blind Freddy can see it.

[onetrack]

It's 1980-81 all over again - with the double whammy of gas supplies being curtailed as well. Most of Asia runs on natural gas, with Qatar being the worlds largest supplier of NG. When oil prices go ballistic, gas prices follow.

The next thing you can look forward to, is "there is no fuel - so supplies will be rationed to critical services". This almost happened in 1980-81, we were told we soon wouldn't be able to get any fuel. 

It's all fear factor, nothing like generating fear to send prices ballistic, and to create long lines at servos. In 1980-81, all heavy users invested in massive levels of fuel storage. Some of my farmer clients purchased 50,000 litre fuel tanks.

The biggest concern is that an oil price through the roof generates a substantial increase in inflation. Watch for tyre prices going up 25-30% soon, because oil is a major constituent of tyres. Synthetic clothing, the same.

Even Chinese-produced products will soon start becoming much more expensive, simply because of oil and gas prices.

I went to buy a packet of my favourite bacon yesterday, the price has gone from $7 to $8 in just the last week. All groceries will soon follow the same trend. 

What we could do, is start up an AI-controlled load movement system, ensuring no trucks run empty. I see roadtrains by the hundreds, still running the highways, empty. What a waste of fuel that is.

There is absolutely nothing any Australian politician can do about keeping a lid on fuel prices, or increasing availability. Their lack of vision and planning over decades, even to the extent of having low levels of fuel reserves, is showing up now.

[facthunter]

Storing fuel adds to the Cost of it. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The Australian Government are NOT responsible for CAUSING this situation and have little Power to Influence the Outcome of it. Face Facts. Refining crude here is More costly than sourcing it from More efficient Places. Much of the World Is in the same boat as we are and some are worse off Highly dependent on an assured supply of Oil food Medicines , electricity Labour ,Water and many other Items that we are used to finding easily on the shelves of the common outlets that we take for granted.   Maybe We ain't seen nothing yet .  Look to the People who ruined Rules Based Trade without thinking of the Consequences for others and the Planet. . .Nev

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, 440032 said:

Isn't it interesting that as soon as something happens, petrol and diesel prices go up - even though no new stock from overseas manufactured at higher price has miraculously arrived at the station overnight.

AVGAS at my airfield (via a third party provider) has not gone up one cent, and we had a significant quantity delivery just a week ago.

All three fuels were already in the country, paid for at the lower price.

It is clear that petrol stations are just price gouging - Blind Freddy can see it.

Yes same at Cowra, local businesses owns the avgas tanks, no price rise.

[onetrack]

Storing fuel gives you a strong base from which to counter cyclical price variations, threats to supply disruption, major disasters, and being held to ransom as we currently are.

China has stockpiled vast tonnages of iron ore, 163M tonnes at last report. It's not called a "strategic reserve" for nothing. They also have large strategic reserves of many other minerals.

And guess what? They have a massive strategic stockpile of oil, too - the worlds largest, at around 1.4M barrels. Who's laughing now?

Watch out for China invading Taiwan, now that the Tangerine Toddler is fully tied up with playing Middle Eastern War Games with all his toys.

[BurnieM]

2 hours ago, 440032 said:

Isn't it interesting that as soon as something happens, petrol and diesel prices go up - even though no new stock from overseas manufactured at higher price has miraculously arrived at the station overnight.

AVGAS at my airfield (via a third party provider) has not gone up one cent, and we had a significant quantity delivery just a week ago.

All three fuels were already in the country, paid for at the lower price.

It is clear that petrol stations are just price gouging - Blind Freddy can see it.

I believe fuel is actually paid for 6 weeks before it is sold at the retail pump.

So we should have not seen any price rise until mid April. Very blatant price gouging and the government is doing ......

 

In the past fuel distributors have floated the argument that they must (why must?) price at their replacement cost. So as soon as the bulk purchase price goes up the retail price goes up.

I could buy into this argument IF as soon as the bulk purchase price goes down the retail price also goes down. Yet in past supply problems the price takes several months to go down.

And the government does ......

 

Greed is understandable but must be controlled. Is the lack of government action stupidity or corruption ?

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:07 AM by BurnieM

[johnm]

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

 

What we could do, is start up an AI-controlled load movement system, ensuring no trucks run empty. I see roadtrains by the hundreds, still running the highways, empty. What a waste of fuel that is.

 

............... start of a good idea

- theres money involved here ............ so there's going to be some rorting

- you could put lots of other things in this category to - imagine the whole neighbourhood going to the supermarket in the falcon with a trailer on the back ......... sound like fun to me

- imagine having a depot -m where you wait for a car to take you to your advertised destination

- imagine hitching a ride with a pollie when they jet overseas to France

- etc

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

It's 43 cents per litre not 43% so no wind fall there, consumption may even drop. Yes the government is getting more gst from non business users. 

 

Lucky to have my on farm diesel storage full before the netanyahu trump shit show started so planting no problem, harvest, who knows.

My apologise for getting the Tax/Litre wrong. 

 

There will still be a GST windfall - somewher in the region of an extra 25-125C/L .

 

The price of diesel may continue to rise, however I strongly doubt the amount of diesel used, will drop significantly - its an integral part of our society & econamy.

😈

 

 

 

 

[Thruster88]

[BrendAn]

albosleazy  could drop the excise to help for a start. and the gst until things improve.

his government sold our strategic reserve in texas in his first term i think.

the absolute worst excuse for a government we have ever had.

except for the alan government in vic . the 15 billion they gave to organised crims and the unions would buy a lot of fuel.

snake chalmers is rubbing his hands together because this sudden windfall for him will help pay off some of the enormous debt the clowns have

incerred with the stupid net zero rubbish.

[BurnieM]

Lets be blunt; this is a problem created and not fixed over many years by all sides of politics.

 

The 90 day onshore reserve is designed to mitigate these types of problems and the only 2 developed countries that do not have this reserve are Australia and New Zealand.

And the Australian government even fudges the published numbers by including ships at sea.

 

[SGM]

As at todays date, my local service station has MOGAS U98 at $2.87 c/l.  My iOR app shows the nearest five airports all with AVGAS at $2.63 c/l.  I can use either. 

It would be very helpful if someone with first-hand knowledge of AVGAS could tell us a) how much supply remains (ie how often do these regional airports refill) and b) how difficult it is likely to get more (given it's boutique classification).

 

[BrendAn]

Young bloke just topped up his truck. 2 weeks ago that one was $300 to fill.  

[Moneybox]

I’m running the 80hp Rotax on 91 for a considerable saving.

[Blueadventures]

13 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

Young bloke just topped up his truck. 2 weeks ago that one was $300 to fill.  

Up here Diesel $3.09 to $3.15 per Litre.  95 is $2.65.

[BrendAn]

33 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

Up here Diesel $3.09 to $3.15 per Litre.  95 is $2.65.

But hard to swap my trucks to 91 😁

[BurnieM]

If you are looking at fuel cost savings you need to look beyond the cost per litre. You need to look at the cost per kilometre travelled.

 

Over several motor vehicles (2li v6, 2lit turbo, 1.8li IL4, 2li IL4, 1li v2 mc, 400cc single mc etc) in all cases I have found the cheapest petrol (cost per km) to be;

1. 95

2. 98

3. 91

4. 94E10

 

If you can still get 91E10 it sits at 5.

 

I have not done the costs for planes as it would be more work and I do not have one 🙂 but similar 'least cost per km' numbers would not surprise me.

 

Edited Wednesday at 10:43 PM by BurnieM

[skippydiesel]

Moneybox

 

"I’m running the 80hp Rotax on 91 for a considerable saving."

 

FYI:  https://www.flyrotax.com/p/service/technical-documentation

 

Chapter 5 is probably your best data

 

Rotax 912UL (80hp/lower compression ratio, than the 912ULS/100hp ) can use as low as 90 RON, however it seems to me that Rotax are advising (in the above Operators Manual) using 98 RON & allow 95 RON with extra caution by the pilot. 

 

AvGas can also be used however above 30% (from unreliable memory) the service interval is halved (50hrs rather than 100hrs) and the gearbox inspection goes down from 1000hrs to 600 hrs, due to lead fouling.

 

😈

[BrendAn]

26 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Moneybox

 

"I’m running the 80hp Rotax on 91 for a considerable saving."

 

FYI:  https://www.flyrotax.com/p/service/technical-documentation

 

Chapter 5 is probably your best data

 

Rotax 912UL (80hp/lower compression ratio, than the 912ULS/100hp ) can use as low as 90 RON, however it seems to me that Rotax are advising (in the above Operators Manual) using 98 RON & allow 95 RON with extra caution by the pilot. 

 

AvGas can also be used however above 30% (from unreliable memory) the service interval is halved (50hrs rather than 100hrs) and the gearbox inspection goes down from 1000hrs to 600 hrs, due to lead fouling.

 

😈

912 gearbox is stripped for inspection at 600 anyway 

[skippydiesel]

39 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

912 gearbox is stripped for inspection at 600 anyway 

Not according to Rotax maintenance schedule, with the following exceptions (taken from latest Line Maintenance Manual)

 

Only for the following:

 

"Checking the propeller gearbox without  overload clutch. (3 only for engine type 912 UL/ULS/ULSFR

(2 if overload clutch part no. 996886, without lead drain holes, is installed and use of leaded fuel more than 30% of operation."

 

😈

[BrendAn]

The 2 912 uls at Latrobe valley aeroclub were only switched to Mogas last year. Been on avgas for years.

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Not according to Rotax maintenance schedule, with the following exceptions (taken from latest Line Maintenance Manual)

 

Only for the following:

 

"Checking the propeller gearbox without  overload clutch. (3 only for engine type 912 UL/ULS/ULSFR

(2 if overload clutch part no. 996886, without lead drain holes, is installed and use of leaded fuel more than 30% of operation."

 

😈

Everyone I know that works on them does a 600 gearbox inspection. It must be in a manual somewhere otherwise they would not do it.

[BrendAn]

i thought it was all but it's not.