Operators V Pilots

[skippydiesel]

A debate to enliven this sloooow Forum -

 

I have always held that an agricultural tractor, is operated, not driven. I hold this opinion about all equipment/machines, those primary purpose is something other than conveyance eg a car/truck which is driven (has a driver)

 

In keeping with the above, I do not see drone operators as pilots of aircraft (assuming the drone is an aircraft). 

 

A pilot controls his vessel (aircraft or boat) from within and responds to visual/audible/etc cues experienced first hand. While many aircraft will have technical support to assist the pilot, this is secondary to the pilots skill. ie the aircraft can, in most instances, be controlled, without the technical support.

 

The drone operator is controlling a machine from some distance. As such, is wholly depended on on onboard technical systems, without which the machine would be uncontrollable/crash.

 

The operator is no more "THE PILOT", than a traffic controller issuing instruction to the pilot for speed/altitude/direction changes.

 

As remote control systems become ever more sophisticated (advent of AI, accurate GPS, etc), so the operator skills are more aligned with a computer operator, than those of a pilot.

 

It is conceivable that at some time in the future, pilots will become redundant, as will drivers of ground based vehicles, with all such activities being conducted by on board computers, at the instruction of distant operators.

😈

 

[pmccarthy]

Agreed. They are not pilots. I  think pilot somehow means out in front, leading, like pilot whales or the pilots who bring ships into harbour.

[Blueadventures]

Definition - A drone pilot is an individual who is trained and authorized to operate unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), commonly known as drones. These skilled professionals control the flight and maneuvers of drones using remote controls or computer systems. They are responsible for ensuring the safe and successful operation of drones and capturing high-quality aerial footage.

 

Therefore I'm happy if they can call themselves a 'Drone Pilot'.

[skippydiesel]

11 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

Definition - A drone pilot is an individual who is trained and authorized to operate unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), commonly known as drones. These skilled professionals control the flight and maneuvers of drones using remote controls or computer systems. They are responsible for ensuring the safe and successful operation of drones and capturing high-quality aerial footage.

 

Therefore I'm happy if they can call themselves a 'Drone Pilot'.

Naa! You can call yourself what you want, don't make you what you claim.

 

We are extremely sloppy with our use of language. Fine in social/everyday conversation,  however when it comes to technical terms, this leads to misunderstandings that should not happen.

 

Drone Operators will never be pilots/drivers/commanders/whatever, where that term describes the involvement of a person controlling the operations of a machine from within.😈

 

[BurnieM]

Just to stir the pot;

the French call motorcyclists 'pilots'.

 

[PureCaboose]

53 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Naa! You can call yourself what you want, don't make you what you claim.

 

We are extremely sloppy with our use of language. Fine in social/everyday conversation,  however when it comes to technical terms, this leads to misunderstandings that should not happen.

 

Drone Operators will never be pilots/drivers/commanders/whatever, where that term describes the involvement of a person controlling the operations of a machine from within.😈

 

Just to stir the pot a little, does this mean if you are on auto-pilot so cease being a pilot as you are no longer 'controlling the operations of the machine"?

 

 

[planedriver]

Maybe just a pilot with a "part time job"

[facthunter]

You are STILL Monitoring and controlling  the Autopilot and Must still at all times  have ONE pilot in a seat. As I've Mentioned several times some Modes of the  Autopilot are Not Inherently SAFE. Pitch and Alt hold are 2 examples.   A lotof this discussion is shear Pedantry .Accepted usage is a Part of Language.   The Captain of a ship doesn't have to be the one steering it. Nev

[onetrack]

People that have learned English as a second language tend to use the term "pilot" for "driver". Variations of the word “pilot” mean “race car driver” in several other languages like French (pilote) or Spanish (piloto).

The more common term for French motorcycle riders is "motards" - which word is also used as the French general description of motorcycles.

 

Of course, there's always, "le conducteur" as a better term, too!  Don't a lot of RPT Captains refer to themselves as "bus drivers"?

 

And then there's the horror that so many aviation terms originate from French - and French was even shortlisted in 1951, by the ICAO, as the language of the air!

 

https://www.tennesseeaircraft.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Mind-Your-Aviation-Language-French-Words.pdf

 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by onetrack

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, PureCaboose said:

Just to stir the pot a little, does this mean if you are on auto-pilot so cease being a pilot as you are no longer 'controlling the operations of the machine"?

 

 

Nice one! Still PIC as still in aircraft & able to take over should "George" misbehave.

 

There have been incident where George has been flying, the crew have become incapacitated,  so no PIC. Aircraft continued on until fuel exhaustion and crash 

[T510]

CASA already define the difference between a drone operator and a drone pilot, but you would need to keep up with current aviation terminology to know this.

 

If you would prefer to stick to plain English for those that can't keep up aviation acronyms, the Cambridge Dictionary defines a Pilot as a person who flies an aircraft.

 

18 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

 

The drone operator is controlling a machine from some distance. As such, is wholly depended on on onboard technical systems, without which the machine would be uncontrollable/crash.

 

Using this logic any fly by wire aircraft would be flown by an operator, not a pilot, as they are unflyable with out their onboard technical systems

[facthunter]

YOU are STILL flying a Plane regardless of the system that actuates the Controls. That's only there because a Person is Not strong enough to fly a Large Plane unaided by Powered Controls. The DC 9 was flown by tabs. It's an exception but NOT Big. Only carries 98.

  Bob Hawke referred to Pilots AS "Glorified Bus Drivers" but I wouldn't consider him as an expert...Nev

Edited 2 hours ago by facthunter

[pmccarthy]

We have a lot of motards around here.

[facthunter]

Not so active in Winter. Nev

[T510]

9 minutes ago, facthunter said:

YOU are STILL flying a Plane regardless of the system that actuates the Controls.

So you are the pilot regardless of whether the controls are operated via a traditional controls with cables and pushrods, a joystick and fly by wire system, or a wireless connection between the pilot and the controls

[skippydiesel]

32 minutes ago, T510 said:

 

"Using this logic any fly by wire aircraft would be flown by an operator, not a pilot, as they are unflyable with out their onboard technical systems"

 

I refer you to the French airliner that went down in the Atlantic a few years back - just had computer operators on board. When George spat the dummy, the so called pilots were unable to fly an airworthy aircraft,  - all killed when airliner hit the ocean.

 

"CASA already define the difference between a drone operator and a drone pilot, but you would need to keep up with current aviation terminology to know this"

 

"A drone pilot is the person who physically flies the drone, whereas a drone operator is the person or company legally responsible for the drone's operation and is often the owner or employer"

 

This is unmitigated crap - as a drone operator can never "physically flies the drone" . Just because some half wit bureaucrat comes up with a term that satisfies their misuse of language does not make it correct/acurate. Nor does common miss usage somehow validate an inaccurate use of a technical term.

 

"If you would prefer to stick to plain English for those that can't keep up aviation acronyms, the Cambridge Dictionary defines a Pilot as a person who flies an aircraft."

 

Seems that Cambridge is on my side although I understood the Macquarie Dictionary is the reference for Australian language.

😈

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by skippydiesel

[facthunter]

YT510, You have quoted ME out of context which I did provide.. Also as you ask, I believe IF you are controlling it By any Means YOU are responsible for what it is doing.  IF you aren't, WHO is? Nev

Edited 2 hours ago by facthunter

[facthunter]

Skippy there's so much that is just Plain wrong with how you presented that AF 447 flight it's not worth responding to. Nev

[T510]

6 minutes ago, facthunter said:

YT510, You have quoted ME out of context which I did provide.. Also as you ask, I believe IF you are controlling it By any Means YOU are responsible for what it is doing.  IF you aren't, WHO is? Nev

I was agreeing with you Nev, it wasn't supposed to be out of context.

 

13 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

"Using this logic any fly by wire aircraft would be flown by an operator, not a pilot, as they are unflyable with out their onboard technical systems"

 

I refer you to the French airliner that went down in the Atlantic a few years back - just had computer operators on board. When George spat the dummy, the so called pilots were unable to fly an airworthy aircraft,  - all killed when airliner hit the ocean.

 

"CASA already define the difference between a drone operator and a drone pilot, but you would need to keep up with current aviation terminology to know this"

 

"A drone pilot is the person who physically flies the drone, whereas a drone operator is the person or company legally responsible for the drone's operation and is often the owner or employer"

 

This is unmitigated crap - as a drone operator can never "physically flies the drone" . Just because some half wit bureaucrat comes up with a term that satisfies their misuse of language does not make it correct/acurate. Nor does common miss usage somehow validate an inaccurate use of a technical term.

 

"If you would prefer to stick to plain English for those that can't keep up aviation acronyms, the Cambridge Dictionary defines a Pilot as a person who flies an aircraft."

 

Seems that Cambridge is on my side although I understood the Macquarie Dictionary is the reference for Australian language.

😈

 

 

 

 

 

 

A drone still needs to be flown, the controls need to be manipulated to make the aircraft fly, the person manipulating those controls is flying the aircraft, therefore they are a pilot.

 

CASA, FAA, EASA, NZ CAA etc all recognise that the person who flies the drone is a drone pilot, and needs the appropriate qualifications and training to get their drone pilots licence. 

 

So given the vast majority of aviation regulators issue drone pilot licences it would appear that you are the one guilty of the misuse of language.

 

I tried to use the Macquarie dictionary but it would appear you need to be a subscriber to get their definitions

 

[Marty_d]

What if the drone is big enough to carry a person, and the operator is sitting in the drone and controlling its flight with the same controls as he would use from the ground?
Is he then a pilot only when in the drone and ceases to be one when on the ground?

I think it's a fringe argument.  Who cares?

[facthunter]

You can have a tactical commander in the cockpit overseeing and the Pilots just follow their Instructions. The "Master of the vessel" concept used to be the basis of the discussion. Where the Buck stops.   Nev

[facthunter]

I agree with "Hook Ayres".  Nev

[skippydiesel]

5 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

What if the drone is big enough to carry a person, and the operator is sitting in the drone and controlling its flight with the same controls as he would use from the ground?
Is he then a pilot only when in the drone and ceases to be one when on the ground?

I think it's a fringe argument.  Who cares?

"What if the drone is big enough to carry a person, and the operator is sitting in the drone and controlling its flight...?"

He/She would be the PIC, IF appropriately  license/certified to be a Pilot. IF not licenced, then they are illegally operating the aircraft. Its not the method of control, its the presence of an appropriately trained /licensed  person within the machine. 

 

A drone operator can no more legally enter an aircraft & fly it, than the driver of a car (assuming the drone operator does not hold a Pilots licenses)

 

Face it - there is only the slightest relationship between a person on the ground, controlling a drone and a Pilot controlling a similar machine from within.

 

"I think it's a fringe argument" -.  For sure.

"Who cares?" - depends on circumstance/context.

[facthunter]

I suggest it would be easier to control it from within.   Nev

[BurnieM]

The meaning of a word is whatever the legislation in your country says it means regardless of common usage.

 

If it is undefined in law then who cares ?

 

Edited 4 minutes ago by BurnieM