AvTraffic™ air traffic conflict monitoring and alerting app for iPhone and iPad.

[Thruster88]

6 hours ago, coljones said:

Was the FR24 enemy on ADSB-Out or MLAT (a construct by FR24 and others) - which uses transponder bounces to generate AC position info. Almost all GA have transponders but not all GA have ADSB out or EC. (nor need to have - unless they are IFR)

Pretty sure fr24 only displays aircraft with adsb transponders based on what i see locally. 

[sfGnome]

Google’s take on it is “Flightradar24 primarily relies on its huge network of ground-based receivers picking up ADS-B signals from aircraft transponders, but it also uses other data sources like MLAT (Multilateration) and official radar feeds for better coverage, especially over oceans or for flights without ADS-B. While ADS-B is the main source, other technologies fill in gaps where ADS-B coverage is limited, giving a more complete picture of air traffic.”

 

That would explain why it was showing Skip’s plane as 1200 - it was picking up his transponder, not his ADSB (which, of course, raises another question…)

[Methusala]

3 hours ago, sfGnome said:

Google’s take on it is “Flightradar24 primarily relies on its huge network of ground-based receivers picking up ADS-B signals from aircraft transponders, but it also uses other data sources like MLAT (Multilateration) and official radar feeds for better coverage, especially over oceans or for flights without ADS-B. While ADS-B is the main source, other technologies fill in gaps where ADS-B coverage is limited, giving a more complete picture of air traffic.”

 

That would explain why it was showing Skip’s plane as 1200 - it was picking up his transponder, not his ADSB (which, of course, raises another question…)

And (possibly) that question is, does fr24 use primarily transponder signals to track most targets (not ADSB?) as I believe from observation.

Edited January 18 by Methusala

[coljones]

2 hours ago, Methusala said:

And (possibly) that question is, does fr24 use primarily transponder signals to track most targets (not ADSB?) as I believe from observation.

Quite a few aircraft in the training area DON'T have ADSB Out as it is expensive to add and most of the old GA trainers have old Mode A, C or S with no provision to upgrade to ADSB Out. The owners may upgrade when their current transponder dies or ADSB Out is mandated - ADSB Out isn't mandated for Day VFR or RAAus (yet). Aircraft without ADSB Out are captured to FR24 (and others) by MLAT (or other tech)

[coljones]

An FR24 screenshot - a C182 detected at Jandakot detected using MLAT ie no ADSB Out.

[skippydiesel]

At some stage in your technical to & fro, would you mind advising me - do I have a transponder conspicuosity problem or not??

 

Note: I have a transponder/ADSB, Mode S (OUT, 1200), SK.2 (ADSB IN/OUT)  & OzRunways/iPad - hopefully all operating, reporting my position & showing the position of other aircraft.😈

[Thruster88]

15 minutes ago, coljones said:

An FR24 screenshot - a C182 detected at Jandakot detected using MLAT ie no ADSB Out.

OK so that c182 would have to be mode S or better to be transmitting the data. Have never seen an aircraft with no data showing which would be the case with a mode C or A transponder. 

[Thruster88]

8 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

At some stage in your technical to & fro, would you mind advising me - do I have a transponder conspicuosity problem or not??

 

Note: I have a transponder/ADSB, Mode S (OUT, 1200), SK.2 (ADSB IN/OUT)  & OzRunways/iPad - hopefully all operating, reporting my position & showing the position of other aircraft.😈

FR24 can see you. When you go flying if you don't see your aircraft on the screen all the time then it is the SkyEcho2 that is most likely making you visible.  

[skippydiesel]

31 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

FR24 can see you. When you go flying if you don't see your aircraft on the screen all the time then it is the SkyEcho2 that is most likely making you visible.  

Thanks Thruster88,

".... if you don't see your aircraft on the screen all the time ....." do you mean if you don't see my aircraft on your FR24/screen???

 

On an earlier matter - I have mt SE2 in the aircraft, will not bring it home to check settings, for quite a few days. Heavy rain at The Oaks, will mean no flying, even if weather good, until field dries out enough for my 4" tail wheel.😈

[Thruster88]

If your transponder is not visible to your SkyEcho2 then it is not visible to other aircraft. Your SkyEcho2 would be making you visible.  Next time you fly turn off the transmit function of the SkyEcho2  and see if you appear on fr24.

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

If your transponder is not visible to your SkyEcho2 then it is not visible to other aircraft. Your SkyEcho2 would be making you visible.  Next time you fly turn off the transmit function of the SkyEcho2  and see if you appear on fr24.

I have no idea how to access fr24.

 

I would rather contact Sydney Radar and ask if my transponder is working.😈

[skippydiesel]

Todays Test Flight

 

Sydney Radar had no problem picking up my ADSB Mode S,  3500 ft over Mittagong Airfield.

 

No "bogies" to play with, so still don't know if AvTraffic /Bluetooth adapter/SK 2 all working as hoped.

 

Have checked my SK 2 settings, all seem to be in order. 

 

How do I actually know my SK 2 is working? - Lights indicate all well. WiFi indicates connection.😈

Edited January 23 by skippydiesel

[coljones]

35 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Todays Test Flight

 

Sydney Radar had no problem picking up my ADSB Mode S,  3500 ft over Mittagong Airfield.

 

No "bogies" to play with, so still don't know if AvTraffic /Bluetooth adapter/SK 2 all working as hoped.

 

Have checked my SK 2 settings, all seem to be in order. 

 

How do I actually know my SK 2 is working? - Lights indicate all well. WiFi indicates connection.😈

Was that you hanging around on the cross strip at about 9:30ish this morning.

I'll make a point of bringing my SE2 next time.

 

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

Todays Test Flight

 

Sydney Radar had no problem picking up my ADSB Mode S,  3500 ft over Mittagong Airfield.

 

No "bogies" to play with, so still don't know if AvTraffic /Bluetooth adapter/SK 2 all working as hoped.

 

Have checked my SK 2 settings, all seem to be in order. 

 

How do I actually know my SK 2 is working? - Lights indicate all well. WiFi indicates connection.😈

Sydney radar will be able to see your mode s (with no GPS input if my memory is correct) transponder but us mere mortals with adsb in will not be able to see your transponder. We will be able to see your SkyEcho2. 

 

Fr24 shows your flight today, takeoff about 2pm local. As Coljones has pointed out Fr24 can show mode s no GPS input  aircraft by using multilateration. I think this is what is happening, at one stage you were doing 730 knots near Mittagong, less ground receivers, hence errors in the data. If FR24 was seeing your transponder then the call sign in that box is not set correctly. Still 1200 today.

[skippydiesel]

14 hours ago, coljones said:

Was that you hanging around on the cross strip at about 9:30ish this morning.

I'll make a point of bringing my SE2 next time.

 

Not me - may have been a blue/white Technam.

 

I fly a white Sonex tail wheel. Being a lazy sod, don't usually get down to the field until late morning.😈

[skippydiesel]

Hi Truster99,

 

I think you may have worked out by now that I am having difficulty understanding the issues/terminology being used.

 

In my mind I have three conspicuity devises;

• ADSB Mode S Transponder OUT
• Sky Echo 2 -  short range transponder ADSB IN/OUT
• OzRunways - some sort of  tie up between telecommunications system & GPS

The latter, on an iPad display, gives visual report on Ozrunway & SE2 targets.

 

I have acquired an enhancement, AVTraffic, a supposed aural warning system tied in with SE2, that should allow me to spend more time with my eyes outside the cockpit- yet to see/hear it do anything.

 

"......mere mortals with adsb in will not be able to see your transponder." Do you mean ADSB Out?

 

"We will be able to see your SkyEcho2". On OzRunway or similar?

 

"If FR24 was seeing your transponder then the call sign in that box is not set correctly. Still 1200 today."

IF you are referring to my ADSB Mode S Out - this was set up by a professional service provider ie other than turning on/off ,checking that code correct (1200), doing the occasional Squawk Ident, I have had no input to it's setup/calibration.

😈

[Kiwi]

14 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

I fly a white Sonex tail wheel. Being a lazy sod, don't usually get down to the field until late morning.😈

What is the "R" number on your Skyecho?

[PapaFox]

Skip, looking at the flight track log on FlightAware, the data points listed are flagged for their source. Your flights are recorded with a  mix of both ADS-B (therefore SkyEcho is working) and MLAT triangulation (therefore mode S is working). All appears good. Just remember that these web-based sites (Flight Radar24 and Flight Aware) rely on a network of ground based private receivers without complete coverage, and the Sky Echo transmission distance is short and very susceptible to position shadow from your own aircraft, hence some gaps and errors in the recorded logs.

[skippydiesel]

39 minutes ago, PapaFox said:

Skip, looking at the flight track log on FlightAware, the data points listed are flagged for their source. Your flights are recorded with a  mix of both ADS-B (therefore SkyEcho is working) and MLAT triangulation (therefore mode S is working). All appears good. Just remember that these web-based sites (Flight Radar24 and Flight Aware) rely on a network of ground based private receivers without complete coverage, and the Sky Echo transmission distance is short and very susceptible to position shadow from your own aircraft, hence some gaps and errors in the recorded logs.

Wow!

 

Thanks for that PapaFox - I have been worried that my conspicuity  systems are just for show.

 

Now just have to work out why I don't seem to  be transmitting an aircraft ID😈

[Garfly]

 

If we're back to the distinction between standard Mode-S and 'Extended Squitter' ADS-B, Cap'n Google can help:

 

Extended Squitter (ES)  is 

 

a 1090 MHz Mode S transponder technique used primarily for Automatic Dependent Surveillance–Broadcast (ADS-B) Out. It enables aircraft to periodically broadcast, without interrogation, 112-bit messages containing precise GPS position, velocity, altitude, and identification to ground stations and other aircraft, improving surveillance accuracy. 

Key Aspects of Extended Squitter (1090 ES):

• Function: Unlike standard Mode S, which only sends basic data, extended squitter sends extended data packages (112 bits instead of 56), allowing for more detailed flight information.
• ADS-B Foundation: 1090 ES is the primary link for ADS-B Out in the United States and worldwide, meeting mandate requirements for aircraft operating in most controlled airspaces.
• Information Transmitted: It sends essential data every second, including:
  • GPS-derived latitude/longitude position.
  • Altitude and vertical rate.
  • Flight ID/callsign.
  • Ground speed and track angle.
• System Operation: It runs on the 1090 MHz frequency, utilizing existing Mode S transponder and Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) infrastructure.
• Benefits: It provides high-precision tracking for Air Traffic Control (ATC), enhances collision avoidance for pilots, and facilitates better, more direct routing. 

Extended squitter provides significantly more data per transmission, allowing for robust surveillance without the need for constant, manual interrogation by radar, notes Garmin. 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Checking SE2 setting for the umteenth time;

 

SE2 Installation Instruction

 

"8.3.8 VFR Squawk The SkyEcho 2 transmits a squawk code. Enter the standard VFR squawk code (7000)."

 

Should that be VFR Squawk code 1200 for Australia?😈

Edited January 26 by skippydiesel

[Garfly]

13 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

SE2 Installation Instruction

"8.3.8 VFR Squawk The SkyEcho 2 transmits a squawk code. Enter the standard VFR squawk code (7000)." 

Should that be VRR Squawk code 1200 for Australia?😈

 

Yes.  7000 is common in Europe.

[Thruster88]

Yes 1200

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

Yes.  7000 is common in Europe.

I quoted (7000) from the SE2 instructions for initialising the unite😈

[coljones]

4 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Checking SE2 setting for the umteenth time;

 

SE2 Installation Instruction

 

"8.3.8 VFR Squawk The SkyEcho 2 transmits a squawk code. Enter the standard VFR squawk code (7000)."

 

Should that be VFR Squawk code 1200 for Australia?😈

1. You need to read the Australian addendum 

https://uavionix.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2024/12/SkyEcho-2-Australia-Addendum-to-User-and-Installation-Guide-REV-A.pdf

 

2. If your mode S transponder is transmitting ADSB (ADSB-Out) you need to disable the SE2 transmit function.

 

3. Maybe you should go flying with the SE2 turned off - no output or input - to see what ATC, Flight Aware and FR24 see you as, without SE2 interfering.

 

4. Even though the SE2 transmit function should be disabled when the Smode transponder is transmitting ADSB-out you should set up the SE2 with the Hex code the same your transponder Hex code 7CBC63, your rego R2041 (drop the "19-" and add an "R" for recreational) and "1200" as the default sqark code - you dont need to change this as ATC ignores EC devices like SE2.

 

 

From Air Services https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/FAQ_ADS-B_DEC16.pdf

 

"What should I enter for Flight ID (FLTID)?
You should enter EXACTLY the same characters as used in field 7 (callsign) of the Flight Notification. If you have not lodged a flight notification you should enter your registration (without the VH-). Correct use of Flight ID and other important information about transponder use is given in the AIP, Enroute, ENR 1.6 paragraph
7.1.9. Additional information is also available at: 
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/Correct_Entry_of_FLTID.pdf
Are there particular Flight ID requirements for RAAus aircraft?
RAAus aircraft not operating under a flight notification should set their Flight ID to 
Rxxxx – where xxxx are the last 4 digits of the registration mark. For example, an 
aircraft registered 24-1234 should set the Flight ID to R1234 (the R standing for 
“recreational”).
How can I tell if the Flight ID is correct?
There is usually a transponder control capability in the cockpit that allows entry and 
readout of the Flight ID. Please consult your aircraft’s Flight Manual Supplement, 
Operations Manual and/or the equipment handbook.
Why do I still need a transponder squawk code if I have set the 
Flight ID? 
Current ATC systems still require the four-digit transponder codes. Even in Europe 
where Flight ID is mandatory, aircraft squawk a discrete Mode A code in most areas. 
It is an objective to remove the requirement for a discrete four-digit transponder 
code, but that cannot be pursued without upgrading existing ground systems and 
while Mode A/C transponders remain in use.