Jabiru comparison with others

[Area-51]

58 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

"The Mono is what it is; factory kit build with no special extra bells and whistles attached........"

 

Not exactly what I would see as enthusiastic promotion of the Europa line (an aircraft I have long admired).

 

"The person wanting to compare can learn how to create a data column as a self development exercise."

 

Nor a very helpful response to the " In comparison,..." you seemed to be offering but did not deliver on.

 

😈

A Europa is the best all purpose light aircraft ever designed. With a Rotax 916 fitted it will effortlessly overtake an A320 on final approach and outclimb it on take off and departure performance to the first 3000'; it may require some minor work to render it safe to enable 260kt IAS cruise speeds... It has taken the light aircraft industry until 2023 to catch up and exceed the 80hp Europa's performance class envelope. The Bristell cannot outperform it. The 912iS Sling2, 80hp Sonex and Pipistrel SW121 and JMB VL3 can match it for speed and thats about all. The Risen is pretty much all thats out there that can outperform it and a 914 powered Europa will match the Risen all day every day. And thats mostly about it. None of the above aircraft are able to land or takeoff again where a Europa Mono can. None of the above aircraft can be derigged and loaded onto a trailer and driven away within 10 minutes. None of the above aircraft have a +12G spar and wing purposely designed by an Airbus Aerodynamics Department Chief Director. Except for the Risen none of the above aircraft use less fuel than a Smart Fortwo per ground nautical mile covered.

 

Nobody is able to afford my invoice, self included, for formatting everyone's data sets for them. We are all in Big School now wearing Big Pants playing with Big Toys reading Big Books

[BurnieM]

5 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

1675 lb is 759.7kg and will fit the Australian RAAus new class 'G' two seats (MTOW 760 kg).

I think you will find it is actually 759.8 kg.

 

So not so much a calculated real world MTOW as it is a "neatly shoe horned in to a class where it will sell" MTOW.

 

PS not suggesting that literally every other manufacturer is not doing exactly the same thing.

 

Edited July 14, 2025 by BurnieM

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, Area-51 said:

A Europa is the best all purpose light aircraft ever designed. With a Rotax 916 fitted it will effortlessly overtake an A320 on final approach and outclimb it on take off and departure performance to the first 3000'; it may require some minor work to render it safe to enable 260kt IAS cruise speeds... It has taken the light aircraft industry until 2023 to catch up and exceed the 80hp Europa's performance class envelope. The Bristell cannot outperform it. The 912iS Sling2, 80hp Sonex and Pipistrel SW121 and JMB VL3 can match it for speed and thats about all. The Risen is pretty much all thats out there that can outperform it and a 914 powered Europa will match the Risen all day every day. And thats mostly about it. None of the above aircraft are able to land or takeoff again where a Europa Mono can. None of the above aircraft can be derigged and loaded onto a trailer and driven away within 10 minutes. None of the above aircraft have a +12G spar and wing purposely designed by an Airbus Aerodynamics Department Chief Director. Except for the Risen none of the above aircraft use less fuel than a Smart Fortwo per ground nautical mile covered.

 

Nobody is able to afford my invoice, self included, for formatting everyone's data sets for them. We are all in Big School now wearing Big Pants playing with Big Toys reading Big Books

so you are saying you like your europa

[skippydiesel]

"A Europa is the best all purpose light aircraft ever designed...................................... "

 

As a long time admirer/supporter of Europa (I tried very hard, over 2 + years ,to purchase one of the very few that came up for sale in that particular calendar period) I have to say that I almost agree with you effervescing  just a "little"  exaggerated description

 

"Nobody is able to afford my invoice, self included, for formatting everyone's data sets for them. We are all in Big School now wearing Big Pants playing with Big Toys reading Big Books"

 

The problem I have with those  who tantalise, with partial advise/recommendations/ observations,  is that it smacks of a weird sort of elitism - why not go the whole hog & complete the job. So often accompanied or  followed by slightly demining language . Sad realy, fortunately only arises very occasionally.😈

[Thruster88]

8 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

 

 

As a long time admirer/supporter of Europa (I tried very hard, over 2 + years ,to purchase one of the very few that came up for sale in that particular calendar period) I have to say that I almost agree with you effervescing  just a "little"  exaggerated description😈

What is hard about buying an aircraft?  Selling yes that could be hard but buying? Do tell.

[Area-51]

9 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

"A Europa is the best all purpose light aircraft ever designed...................................... "

 

As a long time admirer/supporter of Europa (I tried very hard, over 2 + years ,to purchase one of the very few that came up for sale in that particular calendar period) I have to say that I almost agree with you effervescing  just a "little"  exaggerated description

 

"Nobody is able to afford my invoice, self included, for formatting everyone's data sets for them. We are all in Big School now wearing Big Pants playing with Big Toys reading Big Books"

 

The problem I have with those  who tantalise, with partial advise/recommendations/ observations,  is that it smacks of a weird sort of elitism - why not go the whole hog & complete the job. So often accompanied or  followed by slightly demining language . Sad realy, fortunately only arises very occasionally.😈

Supporting community is just that; its called charity; "the act of giving without expectation of reward or gratitude". And any individual that is providing charity to the otherwise is by definition a narcissist; no shortage of them, they abound like entitled rats in a corn field.

Nobody upon this community site pays anybody for their valuable time that they give freely to project their individual opinions, knowledge, wisdom, ego, anger, disappointment, joy, fear, confusion, aggression, support and nurturing. It's a Free Ring Circus and a soap box platform with a watchful ring master moderator. 
 

The information presented upon this community forum may not always be accurate. It is a "point of reference". So it is up to the individual to take what ever information they choose to and go do their own further enquiry by fact checking.

 

Not everyone on this site has the luxury or equally maybe the misfortune to be able to spend hours of their day to be a warrior for the free benefit of those that are too lazy to go find out for themselves. Some people on this site spend most of their day being as productive and charitable as possible within their local community;  which may just involve the family unit, a demanding exhausting job situation. Not everyone on this site has a celebrity style character and/or unable to offer entertainment upon demand.

 

And there it is. Somebody asked a simple honest innocent aviation question and the thread diverges off point into the side of a hill...

 

Choice of aircraft is "mission dependant"... Work out first what you want to achieve from your flying machine... Do you want to fly STOL back country bush missions, or do you want to fly all over the sky and nowhere at the same time doing Aerobatics. Or do you want to just go Get  Somewhere Fast... What Range without refuelling does your mission require... What is your realistic budget available for repairs and maintenance... Are parts easily sourced... Does the aircraft need to be docile or unstable... Where will you have to store it... How does the aircraft handle on the ground.... What level of Proficiency is required to safely operate the aircraft... What can be expected regarding Failure Modes of the aircraft make or power train...

 

If you want to Get Somewhere find an aircraft capable of 140kt IAS cruise

 

If you want Fuel Economy find an aircraft with the smallest capacity four stroke engine. HP = Fuel Burn / Hour.

 

If you want STOL find the highest powered engine spinning the widest chord and largest diameter prop in the lightest airframe with the highest lift generating slowest flying wing.

 

If you want Comfort & Tech find a 2025 factory LSA build from Eastern Europe or Sweden.

 

If you want the best performing Prop buy an Eprop or Catto Prop.

 

If you want the most Power in the lightest solution buy a Yamaha Nitro.

 

If you want to support local industry buy anything locally made.

 

If want simplicity and Fast Support and a Good All Rounder buy a Jabiru

 

If you want a good Bush Plane buy a Bushcat or a Savannah

 

If you want a good STOL buy a Storch

 

If you want to Go Fast buy a Sonerai Sonex or a Europa

 

If you want to go Fishing buy a Searay

 

There are many other options based upon available budget and mission; the above are just good all round options in each class.

 

If you are looking for an aircraft model and none, or multitudes, are available there is probably a good reason.

 

Rant and Charity exhausted.

 

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

What is hard about buying an aircraft?  Selling yes that could be hard but buying? Do tell.

Its a long story during CV19 period, which complicated going on inspections.

• I particularly wanted a Rotax 912 ULS powered aircraft, preferably a Europa XS - Jab available but never went down this track.
• My first attempt was likly the closest I came to a purchase  - short window  of semi freedom during CV19, drove The Oaks - SE Qld.  Europa XS, with most of the bells & whistles, looked great. Demo flight, with demo pilot, I became CO sick. One hour demo aborted after 20 minutes. Owner knew all about the CO problem - had not divulged this little gem. I, very angry, ended negations. Later found out, fix fairly straightforward - "act in hast, repent at leisure" - such is life.
• Second - never actually saw the aircraft, a Classic, owner builder (RAAF pilot)  when informed I did not have my Tail Wheel endorsement (do now) - ended phone/email conversation.
• Last -  XS conventional tail  (tri gear) dragger. Aged owner builder, under pressure from family to sell.  Made two inspection visits to southern NSW. Made a bid, accepted. Owner had cataract surgery & withdrew the aircraft from sale - such is life.
• Europa's don't come on the market that often, so the above, including several dead ends, took a bit over 2 years

During my Europa journey I had great help from Europa UK & from the man I came to think of as Mr Europa Australia (I believe he owns two).

 

My Sonex , popped up during my on line searches. In many ways a metal Europa. Wish I had the easily removable wings - would solve my hanger  availability problems. Sonex is a great little aircraft, very happy with her.😈

Edited July 14, 2025 by skippydiesel

[Area-51]

Sonex requires minor design upgrade to allow better direct access to wing bolts; some have this mod applied. Allows wings to come off in about 10 minutes.

 

Always Europa for sale in UK Europe and US; larger population.

[skippydiesel]

16 minutes ago, Area-51 said:

Sonex requires minor design upgrade to allow better direct access to wing bolts; some have this mod applied. Allows wings to come off in about 10 minutes.

 

Always Europa for sale in UK Europe and US; larger population.

Wing Removal

Nothing is ever simple - my Sonex has wing tanks and although the spar's are only secured with two bolts, they are difficult access/remove and a nightmare to replace - then there is the actual wing removal/replacement - best done with three people, can get away with two. I would also expect that the Sonex aluminium skinned wing would be more prone to damage than the composite Europa wing.

 

Sonex have the Onex which  is/can be built with a wing fold mechanism.

 

Overseas Purchase

Bit costly to inspect/have a demo flight and then there is the freight & import costs.

I guess if I had a trustworthy agent in the country of sale, it may have been an option, subject to overall cost considerations.

 

Anyhow & happy with my Sonex😈

Edited July 15, 2025 by skippydiesel

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, Area-51 said:

Supporting community is just that; its called charity; "the act of giving without expectation of reward or gratitude". And any individual that is providing charity to the otherwise is by definition a narcissist; no shortage of them, they abound like entitled rats in a corn field.

Nobody upon this community site pays anybody for their valuable time that they give freely to project their individual opinions, knowledge, wisdom, ego, anger, disappointment, joy, fear, confusion, aggression, support and nurturing. It's a Free Ring Circus and a soap box platform with a watchful ring master moderator. 
 

The information presented upon this community forum may not always be accurate. It is a "point of reference". So it is up to the individual to take what ever information they choose to and go do their own further enquiry by fact checking.

 

Not everyone on this site has the luxury or equally maybe the misfortune to be able to spend hours of their day to be a warrior for the free benefit of those that are too lazy to go find out for themselves. Some people on this site spend most of their day being as productive and charitable as possible within their local community;  which may just involve the family unit, a demanding exhausting job situation. Not everyone on this site has a celebrity style character and/or unable to offer entertainment upon demand.

 

And there it is. Somebody asked a simple honest innocent aviation question and the thread diverges off point into the side of a hill...

 

Choice of aircraft is "mission dependant"... Work out first what you want to achieve from your flying machine... Do you want to fly STOL back country bush missions, or do you want to fly all over the sky and nowhere at the same time doing Aerobatics. Or do you want to just go Get  Somewhere Fast... What Range without refuelling does your mission require... What is your realistic budget available for repairs and maintenance... Are parts easily sourced... Does the aircraft need to be docile or unstable... Where will you have to store it... How does the aircraft handle on the ground.... What level of Proficiency is required to safely operate the aircraft... What can be expected regarding Failure Modes of the aircraft make or power train...

 

If you want to Get Somewhere find an aircraft capable of 140kt IAS cruise

 

If you want Fuel Economy find an aircraft with the smallest capacity four stroke engine. HP = Fuel Burn / Hour.

 

If you want STOL find the highest powered engine spinning the widest chord and largest diameter prop in the lightest airframe with the highest lift generating slowest flying wing.

 

If you want Comfort & Tech find a 2025 factory LSA build from Eastern Europe or Sweden.

 

If you want the best performing Prop buy an Eprop or Catto Prop.

 

If you want the most Power in the lightest solution buy a Yamaha Nitro.

 

If you want to support local industry buy anything locally made.

 

If want simplicity and Fast Support and a Good All Rounder buy a Jabiru

 

If you want a good Bush Plane buy a Bushcat or a Savannah

 

If you want a good STOL buy a Storch

 

If you want to Go Fast buy a Sonerai Sonex or a Europa

 

If you want to go Fishing buy a Searay

 

There are many other options based upon available budget and mission; the above are just good all round options in each class.

 

If you are looking for an aircraft model and none, or multitudes, are available there is probably a good reason.

 

Rant and Charity exhausted.

 

good points except the fishing one.   searey has no reverse so how do you back down on a marlin.

[facthunter]

IF you want  to end up with having a small fortune start with a Big one and buy Planes. Better to fly someone else's and GET PAID to do it..  .  Nev

[Kirk J230]

I just purchased a 2009, Jabiru, J-230. I love the speed, the price, the baggage space, the weight... everything, except, I CAN'T LAND THE DAMNED THING! I have finally sorted out the torque to the left that almost put me in the FBO Break Room on my first takeoff, but landings are a complete mystery. On some occasions I do pretty good and think I've got the hang of it and the next time around I swear I do everything the same and I bounce twice and have to go around. On my last practice session of touch-N-go's I had to go around twice AFTER contact with the runway. I have now had to do a go-around 4 times in my flying career and 3 of them were in this plane. I'm 1850 hour pilot with a dozen or so planes under my belt all the way up the King Airs.  Does anyone know the secret?

 

Kirk Rogers

Prescott, AZ

[facthunter]

Quite a good choice of aircraft. Keep the weight off the Nosewheel always. Be rudder active and fly accurate speeds, on final particularly..  Don't land too fast and adjust the flare rate to what's happening ie put MORE Work in .  Do some slow speed flying at a safe altitude. Make sure the engine idle speed is not too high. THAT can make them float excessively. Nev

Edited Tuesday at 12:20 AM by facthunter
expand

[Earl Pike]

Kirk, as Nev has said, keep, the weight of the nose wheel, they tend to hurtle off the runway unexpectedly and don’t land too fast..

230’s take long time to slow down, especially on decent…I aim to “Be over the fence “ at 55 knots, flatten the approach..full flaps and wait..don’t pull on full back until you just off the ground..My home strip is only 600/700 mtrs long..I can usually get it down in half that..My last BFR, was at an exWWII strip, YTOC, in southern NSW, my CFI chided me for having to taxi almost a kilometer after landing..

Don’t give up…but as Nev said, sometimes a bit of extra work is needed..and when it does work, don’t  become complacent

[madhatter]

57 minutes ago, Kirk J230 said:

I just purchased a 2009, Jabiru, J-230. I love the speed, the price, the baggage space, the weight... everything, except, I CAN'T LAND THE DAMNED THING! I have finally sorted out the torque to the left that almost put me in the FBO Break Room on my first takeoff, but landings are a complete mystery. On some occasions I do pretty good and think I've got the hang of it and the next time around I swear I do everything the same and I bounce twice and have to go around. On my last practice session of touch-N-go's I had to go around twice AFTER contact with the runway. I have now had to do a go-around 4 times in my flying career and 3 of them were in this plane. I'm 1850 hour pilot with a dozen or so planes under my belt all the way up the King Airs.  Does anyone know the secret?

 

Kirk Rogers

Prescott, AZ

For what it's worth I trim 100% up on short final. The 230 nose will drop fast when power is reduced. It gives me a much better transition to flare. I used this technique in a Cessna 310 for the same reason. At least it works for me.

[facthunter]

I have found that with full back trim some back stick force is still required on final, This is NOT really a problem when you get used to it. Make it go where you want it to and fly it accurately on attitude.. Nev.

[Blueadventures]

4 hours ago, Kirk J230 said:

I just purchased a 2009, Jabiru, J-230. I love the speed, the price, the baggage space, the weight... everything, except, I CAN'T LAND THE DAMNED THING! I have finally sorted out the torque to the left that almost put me in the FBO Break Room on my first takeoff, but landings are a complete mystery. On some occasions I do pretty good and think I've got the hang of it and the next time around I swear I do everything the same and I bounce twice and have to go around. On my last practice session of touch-N-go's I had to go around twice AFTER contact with the runway. I have now had to do a go-around 4 times in my flying career and 3 of them were in this plane. I'm 1850 hour pilot with a dozen or so planes under my belt all the way up the King Airs.  Does anyone know the secret?

 

Kirk Rogers

Prescott, AZ

I believe that it would have been great if Jabiru made a thicker wing cord (wing option), that had the 230's able to take-off and land shorter, (I mean by average low hours per year competent pilots; I know that very competent / experienced with the model can land short.) The thicker cord would allow more dray and lift and bleed speed quicker on landing.  I did email them about 2013 and got a reply from one of their aero engineers that it's not being looked at.  In short, I'd like to see a slower s&l speed with lower stall and shorter roll distances.  Just my positive 2 cents worth.  Cheers.

Edited Tuesday at 03:55 AM by Blueadventures

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

I have found that with full back trim some back stick force is still required on final, This is NOT really a problem when you get used to it. Make it go where you want it to and fly it accurately on attitude.. Nev.

Is this on the 230?

[facthunter]

Yes. Same with over 120 Knots.  Nev

[facthunter]

Might be different with only one light person in it.  I've  never flown one when just solo. Aways when 

instructing. One was the actual owner and the Other a school one..  Nev

Edited Tuesday at 06:01 AM by facthunter

[madhatter]

Hoping to get performance up with the Rotec tbi fuel injection. About done now but a difficult project. Also installing conductive teflon fuel hoses to replace all hoses rather than original vinyl hoses.

[skippydiesel]

"......original vinyl hoses."

 

Vinyl?????😈

[madhatter]

45 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

"......original vinyl hoses."

 

Vinyl?????😈

Yes. Factory original for my 230. Couldn't wait to get rid of them. Not firewall fwd of coarse but though the cabin.

 

[skippydiesel]

18 minutes ago, madhatter said:

Yes. Factory original for my 230. Couldn't wait to get rid of them. Not firewall fwd of coarse but though the cabin.

 

Wow! The only vinyl hose I know of is the transparent stuff you might use on a temporary water supply system - never fuel or oil😈

[madhatter]

It was designed for fuel to be used on Jabiru but l never got used to it. I'm used to certified.