turboplanner

You're all just jealous

.......my wife Monkeycoat would be very good at convincing thePokers that white was grey, but on some occasions could be pink except in the winter when it could also be magenta or except on a Tuesday"

"Well with that I think we should wrap this thread up" said Alpha Laval who'd had some difficulty following pokeylogic and saw a definite rival in Peter Doubt.

"Why would......""

Know Your Acronyms............. (and when to get back on track...mod)

...was in fact the grandson of Nando who not only led the charge on the southern Lewis Gun at the Cowra escape, nicked across to the hospital, grabbed the good looking nurse who used to massage their carbuncles in the Camp, hotwired a Mercury Ute from the Bakery and nipped out to the aerodrome, nicked a Percival Proctor and flew to Vanuatu without using a GPS, started a coffed plantation and founded the Nandos we've all come to love and enjoy, even if we have the runs the next day.

Endo gave a 60 minute briefing on the Plan for the cross linking of risk management, accident minimisation by modular training using professional qualified trainers from the Nando Kamikaze Flight School, and managed by a comprehensive interlinked geographical, vertical and horizontal management structure of women, headed by Gina Rhinehart.

Peter Doubt, having listened to this very detailed analysis accompanied by charts and photos, helpfully added: "What we need is governance!"

"What's that?" asked Quaver. "You know" said Peter, and so it went on for another hour, when the next speaker was introduced.

"Before I go on" said Art Lox "You always do!" yelled an interjector who had a sharp nose and a mangy ar$e. "Before I go on" repeated Art, I must bring to your attention that not all here are supporting our proud Hokey Pokey Federation"

And there was general gnashing of teeth, and breathing through the teeth from the Japanese descendents.

"Alpha Laval, he went on picked up another organization, the Hockey Poxy, after a trip to the Phillipines, and is trying to flog it wherever he can. Already a few have been taken by it" said Mr Lox.

"Well do we......"

I can help you out here - get all members to get insurance here. http://www.amas.org.au/#!insurance/cnnu

For those of you who have been asking how much Public Liability Insurance cover to buy for your flying, which may include busy airports, note the $20 million cover and note the requirement to comply with applicable CASA regulations for RC Aircraft.

Salty who had been having troubles lately "but they seem to be getting closer and closer to..................."

nothing to do with thread....LETS GET BACK ON TRACK......MOD

I take it you haven't done any diversion training FT, which might be a good idea because there are many causes of diversions, and you need to be able to do in-flight re-planning calculations and come out with the right fuel endurance and destination time vs last light as just two of the requirements. Sitting there looking at a GPS or EFis and dribbling will not do that for you.

They start with the land owner, then go through "all the people" so the organiser, the participant, the owner of the model and so on, so you would need your name on the policy for a start, and you would need to see each renewal is current, or take out your own Radio Control Public Liability policy.

In my club you require a licence before you can fly, you can only fly at the club field and linked club fields, and the subscription includes a substantial amount for Public Liability insurance (maybe more than RAA) which the club takes out. There are a few serious injuries from people being hit by wayward aircraft on the field, in parks, hitting cars on highways, property damage etc. You aren't covered if you fly away from the field or linked fields or let your licence lapse.

Compared to RAA there should be a lot less big claims, but more small claims.

The noise factor may be a planning issue.

.......the Hawaiian Islands, but that's another story, and we are getting ahead of ourselves.

ASIO have advised Turbo that now Julia has gone, and Kevin uses a lot of those words, plus hair flicks, that an abridged version of Turbo's Journal could be released to a select few (the ones with the strongest stomachs) some time in the future.

"I'd release it now" said ...

.....organ grinder.

Catshat had injected some doubt about Turbo's journal (currently seized by ASIO) in which he alludes to Ratface's ancestry, but Turbo can tell you that when King George III heard about Cookie's (That's what the aborigines called Captain James Cook) antics south of Cookietown (renamed Cooktown in an attempt to hide the "scandal", he declared in disgust "I henceforth name my territory north of New South Wales ######land [we can't have that language, Administrator] [We can, moderator 1] [You're one, moderator 2][in your boot, moderator 3][is it Monday?, moderator 4]

Queen Victoria later said "I can understand after that foul Captain's deed that the people should be punished, but it wears ones emotions to be faced by that word when signing laws, so lets call it Queensland. That will punish them enough, or those Queenslanders who can read at least, and we'll put a Captain's epaulette and a goat on their Coat of Arms."

"Well I........................"

When I was training Night VFR was seen as an attractive option, extending the business day, but after a few decades of seeing it all turn to sh$t, I'd have to say that a current IFR rating is the only way to go if you want to contemplate late afternoon flying cross country.

Apart from weather, last light can creep up on you due to things like waiting for a refueller to come out to the airport, diverting so people who have thrown up can clean themselves.

I've been delayed for more than two hours into late afternoon on long flights on two occasions, and it usually means almost re-flight planning.

Aside from the unexpected, one of the safest ways to avoid last light is to do your performance and operations calculations before every flight, which we are all required to do.

This link is about a NVFR qualified pilot who finished up at last light in the Wimmera wheat area where the houses can be kilometres apart and there are no town lights to get a horizon

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-100.aspx

Early morning also has its problems, with Roma Airport known for a particularly black surround at first light I certainly resolved not to take off at first light any more after reading this and the following link.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2013/aair/ao-2013-057.aspx

This is discussion on the Roma crash from some very experienced commercial pilots, showing something we don't experience in VFR flying - somotograpgic illusion.

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/511041-c210-crash-roma.html

You make a good point Eighty; before you can do ANYTHING you have to get people to vote.

Yes, we were aware of that Alfa, it was the implication of that, with CASA personnel now in the bowl of soup with the RAA board members down the years, we were talking about.

............page boy.

We need more governance like that said Peterdout. If we had a page boy in every State and then added a Chief page boy in Canberra, reporting to a Page who in turn reported to a Staffmaster who was rersponsible to a Crier who took orders from Speaker, the efficiency of our organization would be professional.

"If we........"

May be a silly question but can anyone tell me where or how The divide is worked out between north and south Qld in reference to the board delegatesThanks David

This was the simple question.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2013/aair/ao-2013-104.aspx\

Have a look on this link and you'll see the preliminary report.

....explained that he'd been checking the credentials of a Candidate for the elections and found he was related to the Monster from the Swamps.

"That's nothing" said Salty, I always thought Ahlow had a Chinese appearance, and sure enough found his real name was Ahchoo and has also was related to TMFTS"

"He can never be a board member then" said Shathat "We cannot have that high office sullied by relationships."

"The Rat...." Turbo began, but faltered, and people could see he was descending into shock. What could it be he found in North Queensland, apart from Maggot, the noisy terrier, what could...........

........Hobbs Meter.

"I was Hobbs Champion in 1949" cried the Rat before he could stop himself. and looking around he very sneakily.........

".....is...is...is...is...is....."

He had been Microsofted after years of IT work. "We should ERROR403" he added

The screen had unfortunately turned blue when Andy crapped, shat, and sat in his hat in excitement as the SAAB p[robed yet again. "I.........."

...take time off from my busy schedule conversing with the OS (aviation term) on professional conduct to go out and strangle a few stray kittens.

His thought went back to the most astounding gaffe of the year when an obviously tired Rat suggested that since no one had heard anything the chaps must be on the job, leopard spots in the cupboard, forging ahead with cutting edge precision, and achieving remarkable results.

Turbo, whose amazing story about his trip into the wilds of Queensland looking for Rat's ancestry had been furLookther delayed by ASIO, and a new request by Prime Minister Rudd that we couldn't have THAT come out at the time of an election had nevertheless been researching diligently and had found that in 1426 an ancestor of his, Aldus Rattus had looked at the horizon and said "I can't see any further, so that proves the world is flat!"

"Look at your fly" said Pontius Arlotte "That proves.............."

TP. Although I have said this before I will again.RAAus are not mandated to have a full time Safety Manager. CASA has stated this to the board. Do not take that to mean we won't, we might, but we do not need too. Read and print all the links you like. CASA interpretation (which is the one I care about) has been clearly stated.

 

Regards,

 

Jim Tatlock.

If you were a Driving instructor and you were teaching a person with a Learners certificate how to drive, and the person was speeding, and you said that was OK, he could slow down after a kilometre or two, but he skidded into an oncoming car due to the excessive speed, the learner would have had the approval of the trainer, but both would be charged.

The fact is Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. do not have a Safety Management System.

In a multi million dollar claim the question asked will be: Does Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. have a compliant Safety Management System?

If a regulation calls up an approved helmet to be worn by a motorcycle rider, that’s it; you don’t have the option of saying “Well that’s expensive, so I’ll just dodge the cars instead – that’s safe.”

Alfa, we are not close at all; even though I’ve provided most of the documents for you, you’re still going off dodging cars.

You and dodo are both agreeing on the way we operated in the prescriptive legislation era, but the Governments moved away from this in the 1980’s.

I’m not yet again going into the history of why things changed and the way we have to do things now if we want to protect ourselves, that’s your risk.

Alfa, you didn’t answer my question on whether you complied with the board member job description spelled out in the Sport Aviation Self Administration Handbook 2010, which is still a current document. If you didn’t, this could put you at considerable risk if a claim came in.

Here again is the link

http://flysafe.raa.asn.au/regulations/casa_sport_aviation_handbook.pdf

The Handbook was published in June 2010, and is still applicable, as I mentioned.

It spells out CASA’s interpretation of Self-Regulation

It discusses Risk Management

It discusses the mandatory SMS, and says this is consistent with:

·ICAO

·CASA

·CAANZ

·Transport Canada

·FAA

·CAA UK

So the stories that we don’t have this BS in New Zealand or USA, probably mean “yet”

On Page 24 is the Incoming Board Checklist, and Item 4e shows the board member’s duties in relation to the Safety Management System framework.

On Page 25 is the checklist for board members during their term, and Item 4a says “Ensure the organisation’s SMS framework is up to date.

The board of Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. is a Board of Management, not a Board of Directors, which seems to confuse people daily, and lead to secrecy, and a lot of the other issues which, particularly now, are occurring.

These people are required to MANAGE the day to day activities of the Association.

With the board members duties spelled out clearly for anyone to see on the CASA website, and given that these people are elected to manage, let’s see what we do know.

From June 2010, RAA was under a safety obligation to set up an SMS and appoint an SMS Manager.

They could have called for volunteers, hired a Consultant, or a number of other things because the CASA/ICAO system is written for performance rather than by prescription.

There was great urgency for this, since in the world of Public Liability claims, from the minute the booklet was issued to RAA, it was operating without a safety system.

So the correct management action for protection of members’ finances at that time would have been to have grounded all aircraft and excluded members of the public from all venues until such time as an SMS existed. This is not as bad as it sounds; that may have taken one or two days with the right document format.

That wasn’t done, and although, as we saw above, the SMS was the responsibility of the board members, I was told they gave the job to Steve Bell.

Nothing happened.

In 2012, as Alfa has been referring to, the board members made a superfluous decision which appears to centre on the basic shell document Steve had previously come up with, which as we’ve seen was not an SMS system. They then gave it to Steve Tizzard.

Nothing happened.

Then came 2013 when things became a little more urgent.

The outcome of this is that all board members since June 2010 could be subject to claims arising from crashes since that date. Some of these will still be in process, moving towards the Courts in the next two to four years. This also applies to crashes occurring now and in the future until a working SMS exists.

Since you can’t hand off a Tort, it makes sense that you don’t try to hand off your Duty of Care, particularly if it was your job. In this respect I don’t believe either Steve Bell or Steve Tizzard would have any legal responsibility.

I must apologise for using a draftsman’s term regarding documents; “calls up” has the same meaning as “requires”

So all these board members could face claims, and since their obligation was known to them, could also face criminal prosecution.

While this is a matter for them, inevitably members’ money will be involved, rightly or wrongly.

The clock is ticking, and that was the urgency Ed Herring faced when confronted by CASA – the only dates which count are June 2010, and the date there is an SMS operating.

So that is the issue with, in 2013, leisurely thinking of employing a consultant who might get it right and something might happen this year or next – members are carrying a time bomb.

If CASA were to get into this saga and perhaps agree to a time delay, then the CASA people involved in that also take on their own risks.

Yep rough paddock I new exactly what the terrain was like 582 engine the plane is a right off great airframe like the jabs no surging this in most others my mate got head slashed 2 stitches and seat belt burn and bruises and me I got a broken back rather me than my passenger I am druged up but want facts out there not speculations hell I'm sore but ok

Brilliant job Steve, and thanks very much for posting under horrific medical conditions; we'll be thinking of you as the treatment progresses.

Sorry Turbo but for once I must categorically disagree with you. RA-Aus is not a large or even medium organisation. With 15 employees, it qualifies as a small business. For an SMS to be successful in a small business, it must be scaled to fit the organisation or else it will do more to harm safety than enhance it as everyone's time gets absorbed with paperwork instead of walking around and doing safety.RA-Aus needs to operate safely not just operate a complex safety system.

 

In my view, a permanent safety manager erodes "safety" out of the jobs of the Operations and Technical Managers. Safety is a line function for line managers. They certainly need support to do the leg work of getting a suitable SMS in place but it is not helpful for the responsibility of managing safely to be supplanted by a permanent staff function. Safety of pilots and their passengers and the general public they fly over is not the responsibility of the Safety Manager it is the responsibility of the PIC, their aircraft maintainer and the Ops and Tech Managers.

 

Surely what RA-Aus needs is a consultant with demonstrated expertise at establishing a SMS in the Aviation arena? There are a number of such organisations and RA-Aus has been in discussions with them very recently. Consultants are much better at auditing systems than the people who designed or operate the system. Consultants can be expensive but for a relatively short duration. A smart safety system is infrastructure in much the same way as the office building and computer systems.

 

It is indeed a pity that we haven't all been advised about what is happening in this area particularly all the "sky is falling" warnings from Ed. While we can all hope that the Board will tell us soon, hoping and complaining about it here won't achieve a single (useful) thing. I will contact by Board Reps today and ask them to tell us all what is happening in this area and I urge all RA-Aus members to do likewise.

 

I strongly agree with you that it is not appropriate to enter into a detailed public discussion of Myles's suitability for the role. From the outcomes we know of, you could logically deduce that the judgement of the Board Majority, who do know Myles, is that he was not suitable and that the process for his selection was not in keeping with sound management practices nor demonstrably ethical and nor in keeping with the principles of good governance which our Board Members are obliged to observe.

 

It is time to let go of this unsavoury episode of improper conduct and cronyism and get on with the future.

The size of RAA, whether is be a 15 man Office in Canberra where no accidents or fatalities are occurring or across Australia with 5000 + aircraft and regular fatalities is immaterial, because DWF quoted from Booklet 2 on the CASA website which is related to CASA's activities such as airlines, charter companies, maintenance facilities etc - aviation operators and businesses. If you put his clause in your browser and read it, you'll even find examples of a mythical Bus Air Chart and Bush Air Maintenance Services.

We fall under Self Regulatory Bodies where there is a more formal document trail; we have to do a similar job to the one DWF quoted, and at local aerodrome, local club, local FTF level, the SMS Management can be based on size.

Here are the links I previously posted which lead to ICAO document 9589.

This morning I found additional reference on the Department of Infrastructure site where DIT announced that under their ICAO obligations they were required to maintain a State Aviation Safety Program. I've posted the links below, and these links eventually go down to CASA and its SMS section.

There will be more I haven't yet picked up, but I don't have time to check.

What I would be interested to hear from you Alfa, regarding the flysafe link (third one down) is whether as a board member you were working to the job description in that document?

WX047 August 1, 2013

Department of Infrastructure & Transport

DIT posted this statement in 201. There is a link from this link

The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) now requires member nations to produce a State Safety Program.

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_100396

Department of Infrastructure & Transport

This link provides some detail, and another link to the CASA site regarding SMS for various operations such as airlines, charter operators, maintenance operations, aerodromes etc.

State Safety Risk Management

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/safety/ssp/chapter_2.aspx

“The Deed of Agreement between CASA and Recreational Aviation Australia, Inc. requires a Safety Management System to be in place”

This is confirmed by the following CASA document:http://flysafe.raa.asn.au/regulations/casa_sport_aviation_handbook.pdfThe document spells out board member obligations:

An SMS Manager is required by CASA to meet its obligations to ICAO

This CASA link calls up ICAO document 9859 http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_101001This link to ICAO 9859, calls up a Manager - http://www2.icao.int/en/ism/Guidance Materials/SMM_3rd_Ed_Advance_R4_19Oct12_clean.pdfOn Page 168, Table A SMS Element says:Establish a key person/officer responsible for the administration and maintenance of the SMS.On Page 175, Appendix 1 there is a sample Job Description for a Safety Manager