No Avgas 100LL by 2030 ??

[facthunter]

That used to be done to reduce condensation. Trouble is your next flight may not require full tanks.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

39 minutes ago, JohnSim said:

Ok, Thanks for that. So, in your opinion would it be better to leave the tanks full to eliminate the amount of air in the tanks?

Its up to you.

Full is one strategy, for shortish term inactivity.

The alternative would be refresh with fresh fuel.

I guess I would err on the side of the latter, particularly if the inactive time span, went much above 4 weeks or if you don't really know how long it will be for the next flight.

Refresh also has the benefit of knowing exactly how much fuel (I always fill to Max) before any flight after a period of inactivity.😈

 

Edited July 25 by skippydiesel

[JohnSim]

Yes, I understand. I think it makes more sense to fill with fresh fuel. Thanks for your advice.

[facthunter]

Ask Jack Vevers. Stale fuel belongs in Lawn Mowers,  Nev

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

Its up to you.

Full is one strategy, for shortish term inactivity.

The alternative would be refresh with fresh fuel.

I guess I would err on the side of the latter, particularly if the inactive time span, went much above 4 weeks or if you don't really know how long it will be for the next flight.

Refresh also has the benefit of knowing exactly how much fuel (I always fill to Max) before any flight after a period of inactivity.😈

 

Fuel stabiliser is your Friend 

[BurnieM]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Its up to you.

Full is one strategy, for shortish term inactivity.

The alternative would be refresh with fresh fuel.

I guess I would err on the side of the latter, particularly if the inactive time span, went much above 4 weeks or if you don't really know how long it will be for the next flight.

Refresh also has the benefit of knowing exactly how much fuel (I always fill to Max) before any flight after a period of inactivity.😈

 

Surely we are all dipping the tanks at the beginning of each day ?

 

[BrendAn]

4 minutes ago, BurnieM said:

 

Surely we are all dipping the tanks at the beginning of each day ?

 

The topic is about fuel left in the tanks long term. Fuel stabiliser keeps it mixed and fresh.

[facthunter]

The topic is NO Avgas by 2030.?  Dipping tanks is a positive way of checking fuel Quantity. Sometimes people steal fuel from planes .Nev

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

Fuel stabiliser is your Friend 

Sorry not a fan of "Fuel stabiliser"

 

If I thought the aircraft / engine was going to be inactive for, say 3 months,  I would drain the tanks, fuel delivery system and carburettors.

😈

Edited July 25 by skippydiesel

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, BurnieM said:

 

Surely we are all dipping the tanks at the beginning of each day ?

 

Not sure why you asked this. Was there a suggestion that tanks would not be "dipped"?😈

[facthunter]

It hadn't been mentioned. Planes get filled to the Level they require for the Proposed flight. No more No Less. The amount to be added must be a known amount added to  a known amount. Gauges alone aren't considered adequate for accuracy. Nev

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Sorry not a fan of "Fuel stabiliser"

 

If I thought the aircraft / engine was going to be inactive for, say 3 months,  I would drain the tanks, fuel delivery system and carburettors.

😈

what facts do you base this on.

 

 

 

Edited July 25 by BrendAn

[facthunter]

We used to turn the fuel off when taxiing in timed to run out as you lined up in a Row on the DH82. As the engine died the throttle would be opened to clear out the spent gases  from the engine.  IF it ran out prematurely you had to lift the Tail and push it to the correct position, for all to see.  Nev

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, facthunter said:

We used to turn the fuel off when taxiing in timed to run out as you lined up in a Row on the DH82. As the engine died the throttle would be opened to clear out the spent gases  from the engine.  IF it ran out prematurely you had to lift the Tail and push it to the correct position, for all to see.  Nev

like a walk of shame😁

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

what facts do you base this on.

 

No "facts" just some experience and reading.

 

I have a fair bit of experince in what happens to a carburetor engines that suffer from stale fuel - not hard to fix but a pain in the rectum and the smell of stale fuel turns my stomach, somewhat. True this has been engines left for many months, even a year or more but does illustrate what can happen, something I wish to avoid. FYI : almost all these engine's have been running on 91 or 95 RON. The 91 RON lasts very well compared with 98 RON, hence my conservative 3 month time limit.

 

Reading - At least 1-2 of the major Australian fuel suppliers,Petrol storage times . Provide reasoned recommendations on fuel storage,  times, conditions (air tight container 75% + full, 98 RON good for 6 -12 months) and what happens to the fuel over time (loss of volatiles) Dont know if still available , you may find the info somewhere on this Forum, as I am sure this topic has been exhaustivity debated.

 

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/country-sites/en_au/australia/home/products-services/fuels/opal-factsheet-storagehandling.pdf

 

My Reasoning; If you know the aircraft will not be flown for an extended period, why muck aground with fuel conditioners (approved for aviation?) filling with AvGas, etc when all you have to do is drain the tank(s), gascolator, float bowls, save the fuel for use in the car/mower. When the time comes refuel with known fresh (certain)😈

Edited July 25 by skippydiesel

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

No "facts" just some experience and reading.

 

I have a fair bit of experince in what happens to a carburetor engines that suffer from stale fuel - not hard to fix but a pain in the rectum and the smell of stale fuel turns my stomach, somewhat. True this has been engines left for many months, even a year or more but does illustrate what can happen, something I wish to avoid. FYI : almost all these engine's have been running on 91 or 95 RON. The 91 RON lasts very well compared with 98 RON, hence my conservative 3 month time limit.

 

Reading - At least 1-2 of the major Australian fuel suppliers,Petrol storage times . Provide reasoned recommendations on fuel storage,  times, conditions (air tight container 75% + full, 98 RON good for 6 -12 months) and what happens to the fuel over time (loss of volatiles) Dont know if still available , you may find the info somewhere on this Forum, as I am sure this topic has been exhaustivity debated.

 

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/country-sites/en_au/australia/home/products-services/fuels/opal-factsheet-storagehandling.pdf

 

My Reasoning; If you know the aircraft will not be flown for an extended period, why muck aground with fuel conditioners (approved for aviation?) filling with AvGas, etc when all you have to do is drain the tank(s), gascolator, float bowls, save the fuel for use in the car/mower. When the time comes refuel with known fresh (certain)😈

i know stabil works. it has to be approved for petrol not aviation. the fuel doesn't know what its in.   but each to his own.  i am not interested in looking up all the previous posts on the topic. if  i want to leave my plane for more than 6 months i will just add stabil.

 

[skippydiesel]

19 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

i know stabil works. it has to be approved for petrol not aviation. the fuel doesn't know what its in.   but each to his own.  i am not interested in looking up all the previous posts on the topic. if  i want to leave my plane for more than 6 months i will just add stabil.

 

I support free will (in most circumstances) - your prerogative my friend.

 

What sort of engine and does your aircraft /fuel delivery system maker, approve of Stabil?

 

😈

[BrendAn]

7 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I support free will (in most circumstances) - your prerogative my friend.

 

What sort of engine and does your aircraft /fuel delivery system maker, approve of Stabil?

 

😈

STA-BIL® STORAGE • Keeps fresh fuel fresh for quick, easy starts after storage • Removes water from fuel to help prevent fuel separation • Protects the entire fuel system against gum, varnish, rust and corrosion • Contains powerful cleaning agents to remove gum and varnish build up that rob your engine of power and efficiency • Eliminates the need to drain fuel tanks before or after storage • For best results always store vehicles and equipment with a full tank of fresh fuel rather than a near empty tank. Always run the engine for up to 5 minutes after adding STA-BIL® to ensure the entire fuel system is treated and not just the fuel stored in the fuel tank • Use for storage and intermittent use.

 

modern marine engines and motorcycles and jetskis for that matter are more advanced and complicated than most aircraft piston engines.  if conditioners protect them whats the problem. this is the last i will comment on the subject. we shouldn't be taking over someone elses thread .

[skippydiesel]

4 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

STA-BIL® STORAGE • Keeps fresh fuel fresh for quick, easy starts after storage • Removes water from fuel to help prevent fuel separation • Protects the entire fuel system against gum, varnish, rust and corrosion • Contains powerful cleaning agents to remove gum and varnish build up that rob your engine of power and efficiency • Eliminates the need to drain fuel tanks before or after storage • For best results always store vehicles and equipment with a full tank of fresh fuel rather than a near empty tank. Always run the engine for up to 5 minutes after adding STA-BIL® to ensure the entire fuel system is treated and not just the fuel stored in the fuel tank • Use for storage and intermittent use.

 

modern marine engines and motorcycles and jetskis for that matter are more advanced and complicated than most aircraft piston engines.  if conditioners protect them whats the problem. this is the last i will comment on the subject. we shouldn't be taking over someone elses thread .

Very nice - but did not address/answer my question.😈

 

[kgwilson]

A paper published in 2010 by BP relating to petrol life in vehicle fuel tanks is just as relevant today as it was back then. PDF file attached

petrol-life-vehicle-tanks.pdf

[facthunter]

I personally had many contacts with BP's Chief fuel technologist, who was by far the Most helpful  of the Brands I contacted on the Issue that I was investigating. That article reads more like a Promo for their Optimax Products which have additives added to help . Please ignore the Hotter plug advice with aircraft Engines...Nev

[turboplanner]

47 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I personally had many contacts with BP's Chief fuel technologist, who was by far the Most helpful  of the Brands I contacted on the Issue that I was investigating. That article reads more like a Promo for their Optimax Products which have additives added to help . Please ignore the Hotter plug advice with aircraft Engines...Nev

Stale fuel can stuff lawnmower carbies depending on the fuel blend; the lower level octanes (cheaper) contain ethanol which gums up galleries. If all the galleries are screw sealed, you can clean it out. If the galeries are cast then part bored, new carby required. Highest level octane has no ethanol but the aromatatics evaporate off to the point where you can't start the engine. Aromatics can be recharged with a small amount of fresh fuel. My advice is (a) Go back to the full discussions on this site then (b) work on what the manufracturer of your engine says. He knows what's going to get blocked and what isn't. 

[facthunter]

I can't see how your above post relates to anything I have just  said. Please desist from this Practice in the future. Nev

[skippydiesel]

34 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Stale fuel can stuff lawnmower carbies depending on the fuel blend; the lower level octanes (cheaper) contain ethanol which gums up galleries. If all the galleries are screw sealed, you can clean it out. If the galeries are cast then part bored, new carby required. Highest level octane has no ethanol but the aromatatics evaporate off to the point where you can't start the engine. Aromatics can be recharged with a small amount of fresh fuel. My advice is (a) Go back to the full discussions on this site then (b) work on what the manufracturer of your engine says. He knows what's going to get blocked and what isn't. 

With nothing other than experince to informed me and the assurance of the established fuel companies (BP, Shell, Ampol, etc) - Your questionable statements:

 

"Stale fuel can stuff lawnmower carbies..." In the 50 or so years that I have been cleaning fuel gum/varnish out of carburettors, mainly small engines (4 & 2 /) I have yet to  replace one. On occasions, gasket, diaphragms, etc  but never a whole carby.

 

"...the lower level octanes (cheaper) contain ethanol..."  This is urban myth, without foundation. In Australia 91, 95, 98 RON does not contain functional quantities of ethanol. Any traces of E, are due to transport contamination & likly amount to  well under 0.25% by volume.

 

"Highest level octane has no ethanol but the aromatatics evaporate off to the point where you can't start the engine." -  This is an exaggeration.  While it is true that 98 RON fuel, looses its volatile fractions quicker than 91 RON, in all the years that I have using 98 RON in my Rotax 912 ULS & had starts that were not quite as immediate, as when the fuel was fresh, there has never been a hard or no start situaton.

 

😈

 

 

 

[BrendAn]

6 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

With nothing other than experince to informed me and the assurance of the established fuel companies (BP, Shell, Ampol, etc) - Your questionable statements:

 

"Stale fuel can stuff lawnmower carbies..." In the 50 or so years that I have been cleaning fuel gum/varnish out of carburettors, mainly small engines (4 & 2 /) I have yet to  replace one. On occasions, gasket, diaphragms, etc  but never a whole carby.

 

"...the lower level octanes (cheaper) contain ethanol..."  This is urban myth, without foundation. In Australia 91, 95, 98 RON does not contain functional quantities of ethanol. Any traces of E, are due to transport contamination & likly amount to  well under 0.25% by volume.

 

"Highest level octane has no ethanol but the aromatatics evaporate off to the point where you can't start the engine." -  This is an exaggeration.  While it is true that 98 RON fuel, looses its volatile fractions quicker than 91 RON, in all the years that I have using 98 RON in my Rotax 912 ULS & had starts that were not quite as immediate, as when the fuel was fresh, there has never been a hard or no start situaton.

 

😈

 

 

 

Agree. I don't what servos turbo goes to.  Ethanol blends have an E in front of the number