Engine on Condition. A rort???

[facthunter]

IF you wish to Modify a Plane it's complex and tedious to do it  and those in the Know have always recommended it's easier to go VH exp. and also RAAus Exp where apropriate I always wished to have a friction Knob on the Citabria throttle But this would be difficult to change legally  and it's certainly not rocket science.  Like I've already Posted, I think it's the category of choice for Warbirds who would often Have a Parts Problem.  LSA is another group where you are in trouble if the Maker goes out of business. Nev

[BrendAn]

how come a flying school can run a ga trainer on condition for years but an raaus flying school can't.   seems odd one can and one is not allowed.

is it the long history of continental and lycoming ,  are casa confident they know exactly what happens over time.

[facthunter]

It's really only buying an insurance Policy and taking the risk. CASA are only interested in the Big stuff, till something crashes.. There would be a deficit of related Aviation experience and a proliferation Of Legal People.. No one wants to work at the Bottom of the Pond. It's a STATUS thing. Where do you think U/L's sit?  Nev

[GolfWhiskeyHotel]

On 16/02/2026 at 3:46 PM, clouddancer said:

Rotax engines have a calendar life as well as hours for TBO. As it was a factory built aircraft, the 912A in the Gazelle was only approved for use with a Woodcomp prop.
Trying to change the factory approved prop on a Cessna requires a Supplemental Type Certificate, which is CASA speak for a RAAus MARAP.

Staff at RAAus didn’t review the condition reports for compliance until a CASA audit which resulted in greater attention to this area.

Gazelle aircraft are no longer factory supported, so MARAP is the only way to get legal changes made.

it is not a RAAus problem, but they are trying to assist members to remain compliant using MARAP.

if it wasn’t for MARAP, the aircraft would be grounded due to lack of Woodcomp props and Rotax 912A engines.

Buyer beware (or seller, be aware)!

As far as I know ,( and I would love to be corrected )  the manufacturer being no longer able to support the aircraft makes it COMPULSORY to alter the registration to E24 ($700+)  There is no other way to fly legally. AS Experimental you may do what you wish.

[facthunter]

Welcome Back GWH. Nev

[BrendAn]

14 minutes ago, GolfWhiskeyHotel said:

As far as I know ,( and I would love to be corrected )  the manufacturer being no longer able to support the aircraft makes it COMPULSORY to alter the registration to E24 ($700+)  There is no other way to fly legally. AS Experimental you may do what you wish.

I don't think it is compulsory because the issues with gazelles changing hands lately involving engines there has been no mention from raaus about going experimental. In fact you can zero time the engine and use it for training still .

[skippydiesel]

17 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

I don't think it is compulsory because the issues with gazelles changing hands lately involving engines there has been no mention from raaus about going experimental. In fact you can zero time the engine and use it for training still .

My limited understanding; From an administrative/legal perspective - If you zero time an engine , it is effectively a new engine, so it's not surprising the (certified/factory built) aircraft can continue to be used for hire/reward. 

 

Note: for zero time the engine must be rebuilt by a authorised service provider and there must be documentation confirming its rebirth, as an almost new engine.

 

While it may be possible to zero time a Rotax, I am lead to believe, it is more cost effective to sell the TBO engine (for use in an experimental aircraft) and purchase a new replacement for your factory/certified aircraft.t😈

[440032]

Do any of you RAAus members bother to even read your Tech Manual?

[BrendAn]

41 minutes ago, 440032 said:

Do any of you RAAus members bother to even read your Tech Manual?

explain which part you are referring too.

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

My limited understanding; From an administrative/legal perspective - If you zero time an engine , it is effectively a new engine, so it's not surprising the (certified/factory built) aircraft can continue to be used for hire/reward. 

 

Note: for zero time the engine must be rebuilt by a authorised service provider and there must be documentation confirming its rebirth, as an almost new engine.

 

While it may be possible to zero time a Rotax, I am lead to believe, it is more cost effective to sell the TBO engine (for use in an experimental aircraft) and purchase a new replacement for your factory/certified aircraft.t😈

i used zero time as an example. it can be rebuilt or a new engine.   i think wal charges $13000 , if its still around that price its a lot cheaper than new.

[Blueadventures]

5 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

explain which part you are referring too.

12.6 is engine to run on condition info,

 

Also would be good to hear approximate cost for GA aircraft (specific to checks performed on engines performance) for the assessing condition of engine to go to next service interval.  Then compare that with RAAus costs (RAAus processing plus whatever L2 amounts to.)

[BrendAn]

30 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

12.6 is engine to run on condition info,

 

Also would be good to hear approximate cost for GA aircraft (specific to checks performed on engines performance) for the assessing condition of engine to go to next service interval.  Then compare that with RAAus costs (RAAus processing plus whatever L2 amounts to.)

so what is different in the manual to what i already put on here.  

according to f10 there is a $330 marap plus you would have to ad l2 ,  probably end up $600 or more.  

some l2s might charge way more than that.

the $1200 charge i mentioned earlier for going to e24 is the fee db charges when he does all the paperwork.

Edited yesterday at 10:35 AM by BrendAn

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, 440032 said:

Do any of you RAAus members bother to even read your Tech Manual?

maybe you should read the posts 

[BrendAn]

8 hours ago, facthunter said:

It's really only buying an insurance Policy and taking the risk. CASA are only interested in the Big stuff, till something crashes.. There would be a deficit of related Aviation experience and a proliferation Of Legal People.. No one wants to work at the Bottom of the Pond. It's a STATUS thing. Where do you think U/L's sit?  Nev

i asked why do casa allow ga to train with an engine on condition but they don't allow raaus too. 

i am not sure what you mean.

[skippydiesel]

12 hours ago, BrendAn said:

  i think wal charges $13000 , if its still around that price its a lot cheaper than new.

I have no idea what Wal charges to zero time a Rotax 912 BUT if its $13K which you can probably get (if not more) for the TBO engine, this is money that can be put towards a new engine.

 

The new engine will be up to speed with all Rotax upgrades/changes and have no reused (suspect?) components ie if the change over cost is say $5K why not purchase the new.

 

TBO Rotax 9 engines regularity appear in the classifieds - most are from flight schools and are between 1 - 2 K hrs, well sort after by home builders looking for a cost effective power plant.😈

[BrendAn]

19 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I have no idea what Wal charges to zero time a Rotax 912 BUT if its $13K which you can probably get (if not more) for the TBO engine, this is money that can be put towards a new engine.

 

The new engine will be up to speed with all Rotax upgrades/changes and have no reused (suspect?) components ie if the change over cost is say $5K why not purchase the new.

 

TBO Rotax 9 engines regularity appear in the classifieds - most are from flight schools and are between 1 - 2 K hrs, well sort after by home builders looking for a cost effective power plant.😈

Isn't a new 912  30k

[pluessy]

12 hours ago, BrendAn said:

i asked why do casa allow ga to train with an engine on condition but they don't allow raaus too. 

i am not sure what you mean.

The RAAus Tech manual very clearly spells out the "on condition" operation is not an option for an engine in a LSA aircraft UNLESS the manufacturer states otherwise. Rotax doesn't give you that option!

 

Section 12.6.2:

[BrendAn]

13 minutes ago, pluessy said:

The RAAus Tech manual very clearly spells out the "on condition" operation is not an option for an engine in a LSA aircraft UNLESS the manufacturer states otherwise. Rotax doesn't give you that option!

 

Section 12.6.2:

Not quite true either. I know a 912 that went to 3600 hrs in a school plane 

Edited yesterday at 11:17 PM by BrendAn

[pluessy]

11 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

Not quite true either. I know a 912 that went to 3600 hrs in a school plane 

Can you please publish the section from a Rotax manual that gives you that option?

[BurnieM]

Generally 912 ULS 2000 hour engines go for $6-7000.

 

Sorry but I am going to need a lot more documentation that a 3600 hour engine was allowed to run in a school plane.

 

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

Isn't a new 912  30k

Could be - my figures were for illustration purposes only and reflect common practise by many commercial users of 912's.

 

One of my local fling schools has people on a waiting list for their TBO engines.😈

[skippydiesel]

One thing for sure about this debate -  we all have diffrent understandings of the rules.

 

It's also  possible that the (RAA) rules are not being strictly observed.😈

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, pluessy said:

Can you please publish the section from a Rotax manual that gives you that option?

no . but i trained in the aircraft in question.  it was owned by a lame and used for raaus training. he was allowed to run on condition because the aircraft had a type certificate.

apparently there is a loophole that allows it.  the insructor owned the aircraft and is a lame / l4, he is pretty switched on and he is not a liar.

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

One thing for sure about this debate -  we all have diffrent understandings of the rules.

 

It's also  possible that the (RAA) rules are not being strictly observed.😈

raaus are known to bend the rules a fair bit from my experience

[johnm]

I'll assume a couple of the following things - purely in the interest of thread chatter

 

- 24 registered planes and their engines - what happens when the engine becomes time expired

                  * its becoming relevant if you entertain buying a 24 registered plane

                  * or perhaps some other type No registered plane

- the MARAP process creates paperwork and a fee - (apart from the cost) ............ the intent is then recorded & probably is a good thing in that everyone can see what the 'go' is - a paperwork trail

- MARAP is at least doing the job currently (and I hope in the future) 

- in the case of the 912 - if Rotax are saying 'no going past engine life' .............. then that must clear Rotax of liability

- because of MARAP ..........................who is then now seen as taking this liability

- if it's RAA - how can they accept that liability - RAA are not engine manufacturers (or is MARAP comparable to GA 'on condition' and therefore acceptable) 

 

................ And

 

- I don't understand why RAA does not clear the air on this subject - its straight rule interpretation - best to hear it from the horses mouth (irrespective of what the rules may say ......... or not say or whoever says it)

- RAA to clarify for all to hear - clearly - loud and clear