Mayday V Pan

[Thruster88]

6 minutes ago, facthunter said:

In a pressurised  Jet plane the air in the cockpit is obtained from engine Air bleed. In Both the cockpit smoke or fire case, the Donning of oxygen masks  including goggles and microphones (intercom/radio is the first action. Any smell is serious. It's an Emergency action (Memory Item).  Nev

In the 787 which was the aircraft type involved, bleed air is not used. Electric compressors are used. A smell coming from such a system would be very unusual.

[facthunter]

The system you describe is very unusual. The bleed air usually does the de icing too because it's hot. Nev

[BurnieM]

Pan Pan is an urgency call not an emergency.

 

Mayday is when your aircraft is in grave and imminent danger (in the judgement of the PIC).

 

What is grave ? whatever the PIC thinks it is.

What is imminent ? It is actually the time it would take a rescue resource to reach you.

In the Sydney metro area this would probably be 2-5 minutes. So legally to make a Mayday call a grave danger would need to be likely to occur (in the judgement of the PIC) in the next 2-5 minutes. If it is already occurring then you are covered. The idea is you do not wait until it occurs and what is a reasonable time ahead to call.

In Central Australia this may be 6-8 hours.

 

[facthunter]

You are Making it up. Imminent has nothing to do with rescue time and availability. Nev

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, Bennyboy320 said:

This is how ALL airlines treat abnormal smell in the flight deck or cabin, the ECAM/ECAS/QRH will take you the the smoke & fumes procedure, taking you through to all the systems to troubleshoot & identify the source, if you can’t identify it you continue to source unknown, END RESULT LAND ASAP/DIVERT.

 

I do not dispute the procedure, as described.

 

I do dispute the requirement/instruction to fit the emergency description into something dreamt up by Turbs or if true, a shiny bum, who fantasises that emergencies can be neatly pigeonholed into convenient titles.

 

I  question, in the recent instance of a BA aircraft / smell in cockpit,  the need to go directly to a MAYDAY, the highest level of emergency. It is as always the PIC's call but why not start with a PAN that can be escalated to a MAYDAY, IF REQUIRED ?

 

Further , with the benefit of distance & hindsight, its seem that a PAN would have been sufficient/appropriate, in the above instance - no defects were found.😈

[BurnieM]

6 minutes ago, facthunter said:

You are Making it up. Imminent has nothing to do with rescue time and availability. Nev

I did not say availability and yes how do you know what the rescue time will be ?

I think you need to do some research.

 

[facthunter]

I can assure you that such matters don't keep Airline Pilots awake at night. Also all this is scrutinised by Pilot groups, Airline Management and legislators and ICAO. + any interested Parties. Nev

[facthunter]

Grave & Imminent relates to the current situation with the Aircraft as assessed by the PIC. There could be exceptions such as a bomb scare with information Provided by some external source or the existence of an ADIZ or war activity. Nev

[turboplanner]

19 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I do not dispute the procedure, as described.

 

I do dispute the requirement/instruction to fit the emergency description into something dreamt up by Turbs or if true, a shiny bum, who fantasises that emergencies can be neatly pigeonholed into convenient titles.

 

I  question, in the recent instance of a BA aircraft / smell in cockpit,  the need to go directly to a MAYDAY, the highest level of emergency. It is as always the PIC's call but why not start with a PAN that can be escalated to a MAYDAY, IF REQUIRED ?

 

Further , with the benefit of distance & hindsight, its seem that a PAN would have been sufficient/appropriate, in the above instance - no defects were found.😈

This is the "seeks advice then disregards it" syndrome. 

 

No one "dreamt" this up; the procedures were developed by real life around the world which is why we are trained using formal documents from CASA, Airservices and ATSB - linked with ICAO.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

39 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

This is the "seeks advice then disregards it" syndrome. 

 

No one "dreamt" this up; the procedures were developed by real life around the world which is why we are trained using formal documents from CASA, Airservices and ATSB - linked with ICAO.

 

 

You are intentionally drifting from the point I made, which is about your contention that every emergency can somehow be described by a number of pre agreed words, that encapsulates every situation.

 

I have never disputed the right of the PIC to declare an emergency (PAN or MAYDAY) or the responses by ATC/Emergency Services to such a declaration.

The reaction by flight crew/ATC/Emergency services will, to a large extent, be guided by the PIC's description of the emergency. The description need to be as accurate/full as the PIC can manage, in the circumstances, not constrained by some artificial convention.

 

Further - should I be the PIC declaring an emergency (PAN or MAYDAY), I sure as hell will not be trying to fit that emergency into some theoretical descriptive pigeon hole  - I will say it the way I see it😈

[facthunter]

There's an old saying "Bully for You".    Procedure is for other people.  You have had some pretty good advice. Nev

[Moneybox]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

There's an old saying "Bully for You".    Procedure is for other people.  You have had some pretty good advice. Nev

Don't be too hard on Skippy, he's used to sitting by a fuel bladder in the passenger seat. A little fuel smell is nothing to be too worried about 🙃😂

[skippydiesel]

It seems that many of my Forum friends have little understanding of what is involved when confronted by an emergency.

 

The people (mariners) who developer the Mayday/Pan communication model must have had a deep understanding. They developed universally recognised short/to the point phrases that convey a level of danger/threat to vessel & soles on board. No additional communication is required to convey the degree of danger and the initial actions by first responders.

 

Mayday/Pan is the Primary Communion;:

• The use of these terms empowers the PIC, to take whatever action is need, to address the situation
• Elicits certain actions in the first responders.

Secondary Communication;  

 

Problem, (engine failure), location, altitude, intention, etc refines these responses. This improves the responders actions, by making assistance more applicable / targeted.

 

My concern is is the dogmatic way some have treated the Secondary Communication.

By definition, an emergency is a highly dynamic situation. No two emergencies will follow exactly the same pattern.

The PIC must be allowed the freedom to describe what he/she is experiencing - not trying to conform to some theoretical formula.

For sure certain phrases will convey much eg   Fuel............,  Intercepted........(Turbs) but will not come close to covering every situation.

 

It is my contention that;

 

Trying to mandate a particular code/system of communication, in an emergency, is highly likly to inhibit the conveying of essential information.

Pilots are schooled in the basics - Identification (aircraft type & rego), Position (Nm/location/track), Altitude, Intention - this is ingrained/automatic - supplemented by what the problem is, in the PIC's own words, is sufficient.😈

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

You are Making it UP mate. Nev

[Blueadventures]

57 minutes ago, facthunter said:

You are Making it UP mate. Nev

Agree he needs to spend time a money with an instructor so he understands the meaning and use.  He will learn it's not just a comms out for help; it requires all others who hear to take note of message (don't transmit for a period and continue to monitor) and if in a period it's not replied to then transmit a relay.  Seems just more expression of his knowledge, lack of and personal opinion that at times sours the spirit of this wonderful forum. Cheers and safe flying to all.  

Edited 19 hours ago by Blueadventures

[skippydiesel]

1 minute ago, Blueadventures said:

Agree he needs to spend time a money with an instructor so he understands the meaning and use.  He will learn it's not just a comms out for help; it requires all who hear to take note of message and if in a period it's not replied to then transmit a relay.  Seems just more expression of his knowledge, lack of and personal opinion that at times sours the spirit of this wonderful forum. Cheers and safe flying to all.  

Clearly you either did not read what I wrote OR failed to comprehend.

 

Either way it would seem you have little if any experince of emergencies, the human reaction, the the need for concise communication.😈

[Blueadventures]

18 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Clearly you either did not read what I wrote OR failed to comprehend.

 

Either way it would seem you have little if any experince of emergencies, the human reaction, the the need for concise communication.😈

One tip I'll give you is don't place a bet on your second sentence being right about me as you will be wrong about all three topics.

[facthunter]

And Skip, your experiences are far more extensive?. I don't GET what your are on about or where you get your ideas and how much training/experience YOU have.   Nev

[BrendAn]

On 10/09/2025 at 9:28 AM, facthunter said:

The system you describe is very unusual. The bleed air usually does the de icing too because it's hot. Nev

Unlike many older aircraft models that derive cabin air from engine compressors, the 787 utilizes electric compressors. This not only reduces the aircraft’s overall fuel consumption but also minimizes potential contamination from engine oils.

At the heart of the 787’s air conditioning system are two packs that are situated beneath the aircraft’s fuselage. The air first enters the packs where it’s cooled down, and then it is pushed through a series of ducts and distribution points to reach different sections of the aircraft.

Temperature and air quality onboard are paramount for passenger comfort and the 787 allows the passengers to experience a lower cabin altitude compared to other aircraft. This results in higher atmospheric pressure, which can lead to increased oxygen absorption, reducing fatigue and some of the other common discomforts of flying.

The aircraft also boasts of an advanced filtration system. As the air gets circulated, it passes through HEPA (High-Efficiency Particulate Air) filters, which effectively capture a vast majority of airborne particles, including bacteria and viruses. This ensures that the air passengers and crew breathe is of the highest quality.  i read about this a while back

[facthunter]

On an ad for the Plane? They also have to Humidify it as it's very dry BUT carrying the Necessary water costs a  lot. The cabin is at 6000 ft but requires a lot of extra cabin pressure to do that. More drastic effect when there's a pressurisation Problem. and what IF an electrical failure. Bleed air is more reliable and I think you'd need it for deicing the Airframe effectively. The Dreamliner went flat out for LONG Range  Nev

[BrendAn]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

On an ad for the Plane? They also have to Humidify it as it's very dry BUT carrying the Necessary water costs a  lot. The cabin is at 6000 ft but requires a lot of extra cabin pressure to do that. More drastic effect when there's a pressurisation Problem. and what IF an electrical failure. Bleed air is more reliable and I think you'd need it for deicing the Airframe effectively. The Dreamliner went flat out for LONG Range  Nev

got it from this page

Edited 10 hours ago by BrendAn