Mayday V Pan

[skippydiesel]

Recent return, of BA Singapore bound airliner,  to Sydney airport, has prompted my failing memory to question the use of Mayday Mayday Mayday, in what I thought should be a Pan Pan Pan situaton.

 

What think you?

 

😈

[turboplanner]

Mayday, life was at risk.

[Blueadventures]

18 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Mayday, life was at risk.

Yep, Grave and eminent danger. 

[skippydiesel]

So you agree, the pilot should not have used Mayday.

 

The media, as expected, are using the term.

 

😈

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

So you agree, the pilot should not have used Mayday.

 

The media, as expected, are using the term.

 

😈

No, the Pilot was using the correct term.

[sfGnome]

Smell of fuel in the cockpit. I think that qualifies for grave and imminent danger. What interested me was that the pilot didn’t say “mayday mayday mayday” as we are taught, but simply a single “mayday” as part of his communication about intentions. 

[skippydiesel]

"Smell of fuel in the cockpit."

 

Naa! Covering for a fart (no dog to blam) 😈 

Edited Monday at 11:44 PM by skippydiesel

[BurnieM]

It is not about a life being at risk.

Mayday is used when your aircraft/vessel is in grave and imminent danger.

 

In most urgent situations Pan Pan (x 3) is correct.

 

If, for example, you see a mid air collision between other aircraft the correct call would be Mayday Relay (x 3).

 

However...

.... a lot of people do not understand Pan Pan or Mayday Relay so I would probably use Mayday in most situations.

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:52 AM by BurnieM

[facthunter]

You have contradicted yourself there.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

"However...

.... a lot of people do not understand Pan Pan or Mayday Relay so I would probably use Mayday in most situations"

 

Maaaate!  Mayday / Pan  is used in aviator & marine emergencies. Leaving out the sailors - every pilot/ ATC person will know what they mean/signify.

 

I have just had a chat with my airline pilot friend (yes I do have the "odd" freind) he tells me that a Mayday elicits a greater response than Pan. The inference being, if you want priority landing/all the Blues & Reds etc Mayday will do it for you. Pan on the other hand is a bit , she'ill be right mate response.

 

😈

[facthunter]

IF getting a priority Landing is your reason You Better be SURE you get it right. Mayday IS the highest level of risk.  Even Blind Freddy can see that.  Nev

[turboplanner]

Just checked on where to get the answer.

 

Mayday

For those who missed being taught  these things, there is a specific and significant difference between the calls.

For a start there are three different Maydays, the other two being "Mayday Fuel" and Mayday when Intercepted.

 

Pan Pan

This calls up different responses.

 

Both can be googled in the Visual Flight Rules Guide.

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

5 hours ago, sfGnome said:

What interested me was that the pilot didn’t say “mayday mayday mayday” as we are taught, but simply a single “mayday” as part of his communication about intentions. 

The pilot declared a MAYDAY X 3 over Orange, then as he returned to SYD at every frequency change you prefix your call sign with MAYDAY so that everyone is aware of your situation, the R/T you’re referring too was on first contact with tower as he becomes established on the ILS R/W 34L, as seen on the TV news, his R/T is correct.

Edited Tuesday at 04:52 AM by Bennyboy320

[skippydiesel]

While a "smell in the cockpit" may be the harbinger of bad things to come, I doubt it initially warrants a Mayday call. Of course it may progress to a Mayday situation, then its upgraded from a Pan. 

 

This BA pilot has overstepped the mark by a significant margin. 

 

Now that they aircraft has been thoroughly checked out - no problem found - The Mayday looks even more dodgy.

 

😈

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

 

 

 

Just now, skippydiesel said:

 

No ide whats happened. 😈

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Just checked on where to get the answer.

 

Mayday

For those who missed being taught  these things, there is a specific and significant difference between the calls.

For a start there are three different Maydays, the other two being "Mayday Fuel" and Mayday when Intercepted.

 

Turbs -

 

That doesn't make any sense - there is no "significant difference between" Mayday calls.

 

There are no proscribed Mayday calls such as you suggest.

 

Mayday x 3 is usually followed by aircraft Type/ ID,  location, altitude & track, a descriptor of the problem (anything that threatens the safety of the aircraft) and what the pilots intention /needs may be to address the situaton.😈

 

[facthunter]

Your talents are wasted here Skippy . You should go far. It's these Peoples day job and profession. Everything they do or say is monitored while working. It's  also easy to to be clever in hindsight.  A "smell in the Cockpit" in a pressurised aircraft in flight, is NOT something to be lightly dismissed.   A rapid descent involves being clear of other aircraft below and you can't wait for a clearence and broadcast intentions is an essential part of the Procedure . It's practiced in the simulator during checks .Nev

Edited Tuesday at 08:43 AM by facthunter
extra content

[Bennyboy320]

39 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

This BA pilot has overstepped the mark by a significant margin

As a retired airline examiner (check captain) I fully support the crew’s decision to declare a MAYDAY in response to smoke & fumes, this event is one of the most complicated & frightening events an airline will face. From both a safety & procedural standpoint, it was the correct course of action. Situations involving potential fire or toxic fumes demand immediate & decisive action, the crew’s response ( including the cabin crew) reflects sound judgment & adherence to training.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

Turbs -

 

That doesn't make any sense - there is no "significant difference between" Mayday calls.

 

There are no proscribed Mayday calls such as you suggest.

 

Mayday x 3 is usually followed by aircraft Type/ ID,  location, altitude & track, a descriptor of the problem (anything that threatens the safety of the aircraft) and what the pilots intention /needs may be to address the situaton.😈

 

Do you understand what the Visual Flight Rules Guide is? That the VFRG is an easy ready of the legislation pilots are, or are supposed to have been, trained in? and are expected ti use when flying?

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

What is this - Now a smell in the cockpit has escalated to " smoke & fumes"  - Bovine Excrement!  Shades of tabloid hysteria.

 

Turbs wants to Pidgeon hole every emergency into proscribed terms Fuel/Fire/Intercept/etc - emergency are dynamic,can not be proscribe  by you or anyone else.  Your neat little categories are either your fantasy or those of some desk jockey - unworkable in the real world. 😈

[Bennyboy320]

6 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

What is this - Now a smell in the cockpit has escalated to " smoke & fumes"  - Bovine Excrement!  Shades of tabloid hysteria.

This is how ALL airlines treat abnormal smell in the flight deck or cabin, the ECAM/ECAS/QRH will take you the the smoke & fumes procedure, taking you through to all the systems to troubleshoot & identify the source, if you can’t identify it you continue to source unknown, END RESULT LAND ASAP/DIVERT.

 

 

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

What is this - Now a smell in the cockpit has escalated to " smoke & fumes"  - Bovine Excrement!  Shades of tabloid hysteria.

 

Turbs wants to Pidgeon hole every emergency into proscribed terms Fuel/Fire/Intercept/etc - emergency are dynamic,can not be proscribe  by you or anyone else.  Your neat little categories are either your fantasy or those of some desk jockey - unworkable in the real world. 😈

I quoted you a CASA document which quotes ICAO material which a Pilot in Command is required to learn and use in the real world.

[facthunter]

In a pressurised  Jet plane the air in the cockpit is obtained from engine Air bleed. In Both the cockpit smoke or fire case, the Donning of oxygen masks  including goggles and microphones (intercom/radio is the first action. Any smell is serious. It's an Emergency action (Memory Item).  Nev

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I quoted you a CASA document which quotes ICAO material which a Pilot in Command is required to learn and use in the real world.

If that be true - its crap!

 

The PIC assesses the emergency situaton. Based on the assessment, from high to low, a Mayday, Pan, lower level or situaton normal, is arrived at.

The PIC announces emergency with description - that description reflects the reality now,  not some prearranged convenience. That is unless it just happens to fall within that prearranged description.

 

For the most part emergencies are dynamic. The smell in the cockpit, could progress to a fire, but may not. The drunk passenger claiming to be wearing a bomb, may be or not. That engine light could be a faulty light or an engine failure - you get the picture????

 

The last thing you want, in an emergency, is the PIC struggling to fit the actual happening, into some convenient description arrived at by you or some shiny bum.

 

The options for the PIC to communicate the perceived level of emergency are simple - MAYDAY X3, PAN X3,  or something lesser again. There is no advantage/need for the PIC to be constrained  to communicate within pre arranged descriptions. 😈

[facthunter]

You are making it up to suit your imagination skip.  The first thing the pilots do is cope with the emergency. Then DECIDE What to do with the Plane, THEN communicate with the service you are listening on. Remember Aviate Navigate Communicate.

  IF an engine has to be shut down you won't be able to stay at cruise flight level. Often you won't have time to get a clearance to descend, but you have no choice. Nev