Rotax 912 oil filter. Reputable suppliers?

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Are you willfully missing the point?

 

(All comments below are for non certified aircraft/engines)

 

Aside from a claimed difference in bypass pressure rating (spring & diaphragm) the oil filetrs are essentially the same. May have been produced in the same factory AND have the same production costs.

An aircraft engine failure, has the potentially for much more serious outcome, than a similar ground vehicle engine failure. This factor alone, warrants greater care & standards in construction, maintenance & servicing.

The above suggests higher standards, that cost more - FAIR ENOUGH! (too a point) Not up  X 8

BUT 

I have never seen an automotive oil filter (purchased from a respected supplier like RYCO) fail, when being used as per engine & filter manufactures recommendations.

Rotax 9 engines use automotive technology throughout (ie nothing unusual /special)

Have, in the past, specified automotive products be used in their engine servicing. I am unaware of any engine failures as a result.

Rotax has decided to go down the road of "branding" its service products and at the same time increased the cost of these by many times the manufacturing cost.

Vehicle manufactures also brand service items BUT are in competition for sales with a whole host of aftermarket suppliers. Branded (OM) vehicle service parts are often competitive with after market quality products.

In common with other small market/slow turn over industries, Rotax prices are of necessity higher - fair enough but not x 8  

Rotax has taken steps to not be in competition with after market suppliers, by promoting their aircraft parts/materials quality propaganda narrative - Owners like you have been sucked in. That your prerogative.

RoTAX  is real - its designed to increase profit. Nothing to do with engine service life/reliability - just profit.

There is a great deal of myth about the superiority of aircraft servicing/materials. 

IF you own & maintain a homebuilt aircraft, you have the flexibility to maintain the aircraft in the most cost effective way (not suggesting scrimping on standards/safety).

 

I get satisfaction from being cost conscious, you apparently do not.

I take the time to compare standards & find the most cost competitive product.

Apparently you are happy to pay Rotax & not bother with such time wasting efforts - your prorgative.

Clearly we see the World through diffrent lenses and likly from diffrent cash reserves.

 

😈

 

i am as tightarse as anyone but i believe an aircraft engine is not something to skimp on.

the oil filter with the rotax label is made to their requirements even if it is by another company.

just because another brand looks the same does not mean it is.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Friend BrendAn,

 

If/When, I find an automotive oil filter, being supplied by a reputable maker, that meets/exceeds all Rotax specifications, at a significantly lower price, I will very happily purchase that oil filter.

 

In the mean time, I will stick with the Rotax 825-016 BUT look for the best price (seems to be $36.50 from https://pmaviation.com.au/rotax/) which is a lot better than $78 from Aircraft Spruce (Flood yet to respond to my enquiry)😈

 

Edited May 20 by skippydiesel

[facthunter]

It's a 20 Micron Filter and they always cost more. Just find the best Price and stick with it. It's NOT a Car type engine in a lot of ways. By-passing should only be possible if the Environment is cold and the Oil is not warmed up as required OR the filter is blocked.   Serviced at Normal Intervals should Preclude this happening. Cut used filter open  at each service. Nev

[BurnieM]

6 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

BurnieM

"Except I cannot find anybody in Australia selling them for $36."

 

https://pmaviation.com.au/rotax/

 

Your welcome.

😈

Sent him an email.

He has plenty of stock at the old price of $36.80.

Express post for 3 filters is $20 and $28 for 4 or more.

He is out of the office till Friday.

 

[BrendAn]

12 minutes ago, facthunter said:

It's a 20 Micron Filter and they always cost more. Just find the best Price and stick with it. It's NOT a Car type engine in a lot of ways. By-passing should only be possible if the Environment is cold and the Oil is not warmed up as required OR the filter is blocked.   Serviced at Normal Intervals should Preclude this happening. Cut used filter open  at each service. Nev

How many hours does the average rec pilot do a year, not many.

Buy genuine and be done with it 

Skippy carries on like he has to buy one every week.

 

Edited May 20 by BrendAn

[facthunter]

Saving cost is his "Thing'. Just fly while you can and get on with it. I doubt you'll find an equivalent filter,  and you'd risk your warrantee, and safety.  A Hair is 70 Microns. This filter is 20 and better in other ways.  Why would larger/other filter Makers go to the trouble for such a small Market? Nev

[Blueadventures]

1 hour ago, BurnieM said:

Sent him an email.

He has plenty of stock at the old price of $36.80.

Express post for 3 filters is $20 and $28 for 4 or more.

He is out of the office till Friday.

 

I hear he works only a few days a week now;  it is great he is still working, best to support him and work around his opening days.

[Blueadventures]

7 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

I hear he works only a few days a week now;  it is great he is still working, best to support him and work around his opening days.

Also no sport plus oil for about another 30 days as seems shell missed placing an order, a mate bought his last 3 bottles.

[danny_galaga]

22 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Maaate!

If a very similar product can be purchased for $10, paying $36 - $80, no matter how wealthy you appear to be, puts into question your mental soundness (no offence intend).😈

You KNOW that we agree on the rip off nature of Rotax parts that are made elsewhere. But this is one of those cases where I would rather pay a little more to have Rotax written on the part, which imparts a guarantee that they deem it safe for use. Unless I can explicitly determine that some other brand is the exact same thing, and not just LOOKS the same, I'm happy paying an extra $20 a year or so.

 

Unrelated to Rotax, but I've posted this article before on the perils of assuming something is exactly the same just because it looks the same, or the makers CLAIM it's the same:

 

https://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-lab-apple-is.html

 

Edited May 21 by danny_galaga

[BurnieM]

Filters are very simple devices and not comparible in complexity to USB chargers.

 

Do a pressure bypass test then cut them open.

I would expect any LAME to be able to say cheapo brand X is/is not fuctionally comparible to Rotax brand.

 

I do not expect anyone to recommend a non-Rotax filter, not because it would not work, but because they could be legally exposed. Sad.

 

Edited May 21 by BurnieM

[skippydiesel]

Hi danny_galaga,

 

Yes we agree, on the RoTAX parts rip off.

 

"Unrelated to Rotax, but I've posted this article before on the perils of assuming something is exactly the same just because it looks the same, or the makers CLAIM it's the same:"

 

We agree on this point also.

 

Reposted from above:

 

"If/When, I find an automotive oil filter, being supplied by a reputable maker, that meets/exceeds all Rotax specifications, at a significantly lower price, I will very happily purchase that oil filter.

 

In the mean time, I will stick with the Rotax 825-016 BUT look for the best price (seems to be $36.50 from https://pmaviation.com.au/rotax/) which is a lot better than $78 from Aircraft Spruce (Flood yet to respond to my enquiry)😈"

 

I have never suggested using inferior or unknown quality parts. My stated position has always been - must meet or exceed Rotax specifications.  Where Rotax or potential alternative product, specifications can not be found, stick to Rotax OM. 😈

[BurnieM]

Rotax do not specify the specs for their oil filters.

We only know about higher bypass pressure thru back channels.

 

Rotax do not formally specify the specs for their XPS oil.

Perhaps this is because it appears to be non-oil industry standard.

 

Rotax do not formally specify the specs for their sparkplugs.

We only know they are made by Bosch thru back channels. There is no published Bosch part number.

 

Notice any patterns here ?

 

[T510]

18 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Friend BrendAn,

 

If/When, I find an automotive oil filter, being supplied by a reputable maker, that meets/exceeds all Rotax specifications, at a significantly lower price, I will very happily purchase that oil filter.

 

In the mean time, I will stick with the Rotax 825-016 BUT look for the best price (seems to be $36.50 from https://pmaviation.com.au/rotax/) which is a lot better than $78 from Aircraft Spruce (Flood yet to respond to my enquiry)😈

 

My last parts inquiry with Floods took ~7 days for a response, was quietly surprised with the pricing too, ended up being the cheapest price I got on some 582 carb manifolds

[skippydiesel]

Hi BurnieM,

 

"Rotax do not specify the specs for their oil filters".

That and the apparent differences in known automotive (13-15 psi) & rumoured Rotax bypass pressure (20psi) and "special" flap valve, have prevented me finding an automotive alternative. 

 

"Rotax do not formally specify the specs for their XPS oil."

BUT you can get the specifications for the approved (for carburettor 912's) AeroShell OIl Plus 4.  While I use the AeroShell product, many long time owners of Rotax 9's still use, the then approved, motorcycle oils, without any apparent engine problems & less weight loss in the wallet. I briefly looked at alternative oils, concluded that the savings were at best marginal, largely due to the small quantities involved (3L/service refill).

 

"Rotax do not formally specify the specs for their sparkplugs."

Partly true. 

Rotax have recently changed their plug recommendation, to their in house Rotax branded multi electro plug (no specifications or alternative supplier) for RoTAX prices

For the prior history of Rotax 912s (26+ years? ) they specified automotive NGK DCP8E plugs for the 912ULS and NGK DCPR7E for the 912UL (don't know what the 914 used).

NGK plugs, of the recommended type, are available from any half descent automotive parts supplier for fraction of the cost of RoTax branded plugs. 

 

When my new engine, RoTax supplied multi electrodes, are due for replacement (400 hrs), I will seriously consider the merritt of returning to NGK's (200 hr replacement)

 

Hoses

Rotax only publish dimensional specifications for the fuel/oil/coolant hoses.

Fortunatly, the supplier of hoses to Rotax, put their part numbers etc on the hose. This allows people, like me, to track down the specifications and apply them to automotive (& other) supplied hoses eg Gates ( see this Forum - Aircraft General Discussion - Started a spare parts list)

 

😈

Edited May 21 by skippydiesel

[facthunter]

Rotax are continuously up rating their Oils and filter requirements as they Push output's Higher. To suggest the Previous oils etc. would be still be OK is extremely Irresponsible. Nev

[BurnieM]

Actually Rotax themselves said Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 is fine for 912UL, 912ULS, 912iS, 914 and 915.

The XPS oil was designed for the higher than expected temperatures on the 916.

However, as Rotax did not have XPS available when the 916 was released they also stated Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 is fine for the 916.

It appears either is fine for most Rotax engines but you probably want to run XPS in a 916.

 

....but this is not what Rotax said so you should be covered for legal (warranty) issues with either.

(dont want potential engineering problem to get in the way of marketing)

 

As earlier models of the 912UL, 912ULS, 912iS, 914 and 915 came with NGK sparkplugs I see many owners using them even if their later model year engines came with Bosch plugs from the factory. I have not seen this challenged by Rotax or warranties refused on this basis.

 

916 only came with Bosch sparkplugs so possibly they could play warranty games if you used anything else in this engine.

 

While we would expect Rotax to know more about their own engines than anyone lets not forget that the principal driver of their business is not premium engineering.

In many companies accountants and lawyers have as much input to the final product as engineers.

 

Edited May 21 by BurnieM

[facthunter]

I don't think it's about warrantee games at all, but they DO have to protect themselves. Why not use the Best available? Possibly and Probably, don't register in My Aviation Brain. .Planes fly UP in the sky. Why increase your risks?  Nev

[BurnieM]

Cost

[facthunter]

Cent wise, dollar foolish. Wrong answer. IMHO. Nev

[BurnieM]

1 hour ago, BurnieM said:

Cost

This answer was a response to why Rotax, Continental, Lycoming and pretty much every company in the world does not use the 'best available' components throughout their engines etc.

 

Obviously they do not use the lowest quality and cheapest but do not kid yourself that any of these compaines use the 'best available' components.

 

Edited May 21 by BurnieM

[facthunter]

I don't believe (and I've looked extensively) that there IS another Maker for this spec of filter, and I have given  my reasons why there isn't. Your statement is a supposition. Meets or exceeds OEM specs  is not mentioned, in relation to these Motors re other options Try getting that assurance.. You fellas's hang on every Word Rotax say  normally but choose to ignore their recommendations on Oils and filters?   Excuse Me, but I don't get that.  These Motors have complex,  and often conflicting lubrication requirements. And you  say you want to save a few Bucks? You have your Priorities WRONG.  Nev

[facthunter]

 Aero engine Makers Modify things that Come up in the field/service if a Part proves Problematic.. It happens all the time. It may Be a change of material spec or Heat Treatment or adjustment to operating procedures. Mass of the engine Matters more than in Most other Power plant applications and compared to Many other Production runs are Low Volume so it's not a great Market to get Involved with IF you want to get rich without headaches. Nev

[BrendAn]

5 hours ago, T510 said:

My last parts inquiry with Floods took ~7 days for a response, was quietly surprised with the pricing too, ended up being the cheapest price I got on some 582 carb manifolds

i go to floods warehouse and get what i need but it helps to have the part number because the young people there struggle to find what you need.

i asked for a rotax 618 carb socket and was told they don't do motorcycle engines😁

[Blueadventures]

5 hours ago, facthunter said:

I don't think it's about warrantee games at all, but they DO have to protect themselves. Why not use the Best available? Possibly and Probably, don't register in My Aviation Brain. .Planes fly UP in the sky. Why increase your risks?  Nev

Rotax don't want you to mix oils, stick to recommended one you have been using.  That's why they want the type of oil in use labelled on the oil can near the filler.  So you have a prompt to the oil being used.  So in short don't start using the new x oil in your engine if its been running sport plus 4 oil for example. 

Edited May 21 by Blueadventures

[danny_galaga]

7 hours ago, BurnieM said:

Filters are very simple devices and not comparible in complexity to USB chargers.

 

Do a pressure bypass test then cut them open.

I would expect any LAME to be able to say cheapo brand X is/is not fuctionally comparible to Rotax brand.

 

I do not expect anyone to recommend a non-Rotax filter, not because it would not work, but because they could be legally exposed. Sad.

 

 

There are a number of important features in a device like an oil filter that can be comparable to the USB chargers. That is to say, you can make them LOOK legit, when they are not. One of the most important of those is how the can is crimped onto the base. It could be done by a modern high spec machine, or a busted arsed 70 year old Soviet piece of shit in a back alley in Vietnam and they could LOOK the same to you and me. Im not a LAME or industrial engineer so I'll be paying that extra $20 ro-tax each year.