turboplanner

1 hour ago, jackc said:

but should one of the last bastions of aviation enjoyment be subject to overbearing  regulation?

The last bastion of aviation enjoyment has been going for about 40 years and AUF and then RAA Inc. and then RAA Ltd

If you look at the classes and rules, you can see that the freedoms are still there; you can still build your own aircraft, you can still maintain your own aircraft, you can still take off from a country strip or your paddock and not see another aircraft.

What has happened is that some people have bought a different class of aircraft and are trying to elasticise these to do GA type activities like cross-country flying, and flying into populated airpsace classes.

That group of people and aircraft who are having to deal with what they see as more difficult regulations.

On the other hand the GA licensed pilots and GA registered aircraft go through those regulations during training and have the equipment on the training aircraft.

Two different classes of flying with the top end of one trying to merge with the other, and with the bottom end of the other watching whats happening and trying to merge with it where there are opportunities (e.g. RPL)

 

 

They may well pick up ideas from the forums because a lot of good ideas are put forward, I visited a CASA office once to get accurate iinformation of a forum dialogue and about ten of them knew all about it and there was great amusement at the battle. That also exposes us when we talk crap or criticise CASA for an ASA regulation etc, or rail against theses administrative bodies when it's a Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications.  

Today, when we walk into a Car Parts facility, all we have to do is give our Registration Number, and the salesperson can see the Make, Model, Year, Breakpoint, and VIN to make sure we get correct parts.

Victoria Police and I assume other States and Territories are well advanced in rolling out millions of dollars worth of on board recording equipment which sends real time registration plate numbers back to a central database and relays unregistered, stolen cars and outstanding fines to the officers patrolling.

Police collect evidence of crimes from our mobile phone locations, CCTV and mobile phones.

Even Voicemail can be retrieved and used as evidence.

ASA radar shows every aircraft going everywhere. A few of us were in the Tower at Tullamarine (where there is/was a Centre office) for training one night and a pilot ona Night VFR training exercise called in to report he was Overhead Eildon. The Centre guy sniggered and said "He thinks he is, but he's 40 Nm east! Even without ADSB it's not hard to see an unmarked aircraft scurrying around. During the Covid lock down phases where aircraft were prohibited from flying, a few made the new when they were met at the destination airfield by local Police.

Personally I wouldn't get to worried about it. Both Public Liability and Sanctions only kick in if there's an offence.

An example is the Cherokee pilot who descended below 500 feet over a river, hit a powerline, his passenger was killed and he was charged with Manslaughter (fortunately for him the charge was later dropped.)  

.....trick. 

bull was Landed Gentry now, the owner of a Quince plantatio stretching as far as the eye could see.

OT looked across at Turbo as the Challender started to let down into Vegas.

"Appreciate the help Old Chap" he said "I thought I was broke there for a minute.

bull went looking for the Marketing Manager of his new company, and finally found...............

.....Kia and headed east, making it as far as Esperance for the transmission rebuild.

Down at the pub a Dogger with six dingo scalps stuck into his boot tops (which was producing a strange odour in the bar and caused people to look at OT, suggested he try selling prune juice and metho as Caramel Nip, but OT...........

[Turbo respectfully points out a small error in his story. Cappy’s mother wasn’ t ruined by gin; it was the local butcher who gave her one leg too many.]

........football grounds, and...........

...............; a gigantic Redback was about to bite him on the hand, and he realised that he would have to .................

9 minutes ago, jackc said:

Another reason why I would be happy even if I was a lowly FAA. FAR Part 103 flyer, what ever way you look at it you are still able to fly, what’s not to like.......oh that’s right.......people get a bee in their bonnet over no licence and no rego!!

The Wright Bros and many after them had no licence, no rego either 🙂 

A few of us remember one of those with a similar outlook. 

Decided to to a beat up of some water skiers on a lake followed by the steep pull up; screwed it up and crashed into the water.

Had to be rescued by the ski boat and needed emergency services.

No problem with CASA or RAA; they couldn't find him if he wasn't registered and didn't have the old number on the side.

In fact I think someone suggested it wasn't RAA business to get involved.

CASA did some checking and found quite a few aircraft unregistered/or numbers missing, so they made RAA do an Audit.

Horrific for many people who were out of the air with faults which extended beyond just the numbers; they were out of the air until they were fixed.

Then there were those whose aircraft were not compliant and couldn't be made compliant.

I tried to find out how many aircraft were knocked out of the sky, but never did find the total, but it wouldn't surprise me if a couple of hundred are still rusting away.

........his decision to listen to Turbo.   He thought he'd sleep on it.

The sun rose early and hot on Khartoum in Jine 1479 as Khalid el Brine, Grand Chahmed of Khartoum looked out over the listless muddy river, one fo two which protected Khartoum from the Infidels.

He didn't know it but two of those infidels were sailing upriver now in ships loaded with soldiers. Sir Edward Grenville Biggles [Avref] Singleton was saling in the lead in his 90 cannon ship "Caterpillar", and Sir Robert the Bruce Turbine was following in his 91 cannon ship "CASA"[ancient Avref).

Khartoum had been buit on the junction of two rivers, which made it easy to defend, but both crews carried Seals and the plan was to split up taking up a river each, order the Seals to swim ashore and capture the Harem, being careful not to damage the merchandise, then capture Chahmed and take over Kartoum.

The plan as usual was flawless, Khartoum was captured without incident, and Sir Edward appointed Governor on behalf of the King, with Sir Robert made Prime Minister.  Their partnership was the foundation of the two families forming a close relationship down through the ages.

Christopher Cook was the ships Orange Boy, and he wasn't forgotten, being made Harem and Wine manager ....................

[not finished;these are only fadeout dots.

Onetrack woke up with a start and..........

7 hours ago, jackc said:

Well, it would appear Jayco are in breach of the regulations:

 

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/files/vsb1-rev-6-20210222.pdf

 

This part of above document.....

 

 

There's not a lot of point in making attempts to discuss the transport industry when people aren't fully aware of how to make an aircraft airworthy, so briefly a caravan is not usually complete when it comes off the line at the First Manufacturer's facility.

There is another Industry Term for a vehicle in this state: "Kerb Mass". This is the mass of a vehicle as it comes off the line.

For example all truck cab/chassis coming off the line are yet to have their bodies fitted so the First Manufacturer doesn't have a Tare Mass.

What Clint has described

So First Manufacturers, including Car Manufacturers supply Kerb Mass.

The second Manufacturer(s) adds/add additional components, and that result is the Tare Mass.

The First Manufacturer plates the vehicle and has overall responsibility for ensuring it's plated as VSB1 requires, and at the point of Registration the Tare Mass should be on the plate.

What ClintonB has described is a First Manufacturer helpfully providing a Kerb Mass with the Van so Second Manufacturers/the owner can decide how much more mass can be added before the van will be overweight fully loaded.

It might be helpfull to add, that when the Van manufacturer takes the van to a Licensed Weighbridge, the tickets are all usually printed out as "Tare" Mass.  A pedant might ask the Weighbridge operator to overwrite the ticket to Kerb Mass, and then everyone would be happy.

And just to add a further micro-explanation, every truck in Australia has a Compliance Plate fitted confirming the truck complies with ll Design Rules, even though it is DELIVERED to the Second Manufacturing Industry without a body or accessories, and by the time it is processed and ready for registration, is expected to meet the requirements of the PLate at Registration.

45 minutes ago, SplitS said:

They pick and choose which is worse. I would like us to just adopt the FAA reg's. Australia has a basket case of bad reg's would be much easier to just shift to FAA regs. They have problems to but way less than us.

Just bear in mind, some of what people are unhappy with are changes to comply with ICAO standards, and when you check the current standards, as against what you might have seen on the internet or experienced in the US in the past, you would be surprised how much has changed.......to comply with the same ICAO standards.

It might be that the irritaion is with the ICAO standards themselves, and sometimes European based regulations are irrational.

Western Australian Quince Shots.

OT had planted 50,000 acres of Quinces after  a thought bubble in the west season, something which happens a lot in WA.

Turbo was on a visit to his Station one day, and noticed OT steering the Land Cruiser off the track as they apprached a big hill.

"Where are you going?" asked Turbo in some alarm because they were seven hours from civilization driving over rocks and the weakest point fo the Cruiser is its shockers.

"Ah nowhere" replied OT, and Turbo, who knew OT very well picked up on the guilt and watched the horizon like a hawk. They came to a gap in the hills and Turbo saw the vast plantation of quince trees and 50,000 crows.

Turbo promised he wouldn't tell anyone, and OT said he'd tried to capture the youth market in the 1980s with Quince cocktails but Alan Bond squeezed him out of it with a cheaper product. "I spent millions" said OT.

They drove over and looked at the plantation, Turbo suggested the name "Quince Shots" and the rest is history, the Victorian Government picked up the tab for the brewery after Turbo told them it was going to be built in the Western District. Dan, still picking scabs off said "We want to encourage decentralisation" and the rest is history.

No one wanted bull's .......

...vat trying to get the mixture just right for his "bull's Apple Strudel Cider" which he hoped to sell to mainland tourists, but it all went down..........

........zea.....

.....neck, resulting from their....

......brow.

Loxton looked back at bull, but felt bull was too innocent and would probably be under stress from constantly being reminded about being a "Mainlander", (He'd been successful in covering up the fact that he was a Queenslander; the Tasmanians had never seen one and would go nuts if they thought another species had invaded.

In the 1950s a fruit fly had been spotted 5 km east of Deloraine and within three weeks every car had been fitted with a blue plastic bug killer (they were called bug "deflectors" but everyone knew they dispatched flies faster than a six gun. 

one of Turbo's dealers, in Launceston told him Tasmania had no foxes, the farmers had eradicated the last of them with AK47s to speed up the process. As Turbo drove out of the dealership he noticed a dead fox beside the road. It had probably been hit by one of the last remaining bug "deflectors", but Turbo never told anyone, and NES readers are asked not to let the story get out.

A Queenslander would be child's play to those people, probably ............

55 minutes ago, jackc said:

Sorry, but the wheels fell off in your second sentence, the owner has no obligation to weigh their van, in Queensland unless the rules changed very recently.

In fact to use a truck weighbridge capable of weighing 40 tonnes or so is not accurate weighing 1.5 tonnes, as I have proven.

No caravan manufacturer I know of provides a certified weighbridge certificate declaring tare weight of van at time of sale.

Blame the regulators for poor administration of caravan and trailer weights,  they  just fine you for a breach on the side of the road.

The regulators could fix it but are too lazy......like other regulators I know 😞

 

1 hour ago, jackc said:

Sorry, but the wheels fell off in your second sentence, the owner has no obligation to weigh their van, in Queensland unless the rules changed very recently.

In fact to use a truck weighbridge capable of weighing 40 tonnes or so is not accurate weighing 1.5 tonnes, as I have proven.

No caravan manufacturer I know of provides a certified weighbridge certificate declaring tare weight of van at time of sale.

Blame the regulators for poor administration of caravan and trailer weights,  they  just fine you for a breach on the side of the road.

The regulators could fix it but are too lazy......like other regulators I know 😞

 

I said "the person registering the van" has the obligation to put it on a weighbridge. If the dealer is registering it he will usually go and put it on a weighbridge. If you opt to register it yourself, you take it to the weighbridge.

If you check the accuracu required to be a Licenced Weighbridge operator, you'll find it is very accurate from zero to full mass. If it isn't the weighbridge can be deregistered. I work to very accurate mass with Prime Movers, especially fuel tanker Prime Movers.

No caravan manufacture needs to declare mass. Mass can be added if the customer fits a rear bumper, extra tanks, extra bunks, lockers, heavier brakes, spare wheel, gas bottles, bike racks, and that might be the Tare Mass at time of Registration.

The owner may then add bedding, furniture, water, Kitchen utensils and food, beverages, clothing, accessories etc to take it up to GVM.

The Owner may then load the towing vehicle with a roof mounted boat, Motor, Tools, winch, cable chainsaw etc

The owner then has the obligation to check that none of the Ratings are exceeded.

45 minutes ago, jackc said:

Manufacturers declare false tare weights,  Van salesmen don’t care IF van weight exceeds customer towing capacity. Get the customers money and get rid of them.

Seen it often.......

I work in the transport industry and spend a lot of time on dynamic stability.

The person registering a Van has the obligation to put it on a weighbridge and record the Tare Mass for the Registration.

The Vehicle Manufacturer, during the process of building or importing the vehicle has the responsibility to Rate The Gross Vehicle Mass, Tare Mass (usually specified dry) Front Axle/suspension/tyre  Rating, Rear Axle/susoension/tyre Rating, wheelbase dimension, load bearing dimensions. The Tow Bar Manfacturer/Installer specifies a two bar rating for vertical and horizontal loads.

To make it easier for Light Commercial operators, Manufacturers usually supply an overall towing capacity with trailer axles braked and unbraked. Those limits usually require the towing vehicle to have driver only and no payload in the cargo area (because total mass matters for things like clutches and rear suspensions.) That allows a Tradoe to carry more building materials on the trailer because he is not loading the towing vehicle.

The owner/operator has the obligation to calculate or have someone calculate the allowable Van Load split between axle(s) and towing ball, and allowable load in people, dogs and cargo, by axle and total in the towing vehicle.

The difference between a combination set up correctly and one that's not is like night and day.

The only time these responsibilities become critical (other than ensuring the safety of the vehicle and occupants is after an accident.

9 hours ago, Spoon said:

Yeah totally understand strict liability and as it should be if you were landing on the beach. I’m sure everyone that has would have done a few circles around the area scanning for potential hazards including slope, debris not to mention people. 
 

I can see from the replies that this is certainly a grey area and everyone has opinions because of an absence  of clear laws and that’s where strict liability, common sense and other factors have to be considered and weighed accordingly. 
 

Thank you to everyone that replied it’s all valuable information. 
 

Cheers

Nick

A few things here; 

Strict Liability relates to the legal status of a Regulation, which you find out about when CASA imposes a penalty for an infringement and you go to Court.

Public Liability is where you lose your house and assets because you were flying where you shouldn't have been and someone got killed.

You would certainly avoid any steep slope, but the comments here relate to the nore subtle issue that landing on a cross grade introduces complications you don't normally deal with on normal ALAs (Aircraft Landig Areas), such as nosewheel castor reacting to the cross grade. Another aspect would be morning and afternoon crosswinds, agin not normally encountered at most flying fields. 

Your questions have been brief, so the replies have been brief, but there are no grey areas, and no absence of clear laws.

I'm not sure how much formal instructing you have received but here's a very rough guide to why I just made the above statement.

A recreational aircraft is built and maintained to  RAA procedures and you are trained to RAA procedures, but from the time you leave the ground you are flying in CASA airpspace and so are bound by CASA's Rules of the Air many of which are Strict Liability Rules, as some people have mentioned.

CASA's general overview to make you familiar with some of these Rules of the Air is The Visual Flight Rules Guide (VFRG)

This doesn't spell out the Rules, just gives you a guide as its name implies.

It is 466 pages long with a lot of detail. On top of that are the Rules (Civil Aviation Regulations or CARS) and on top of those are and Guidelines/Explanations relating to the rules.

The Aircraft Landing Area (ALA) people were referring you to is covered in Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 92 (1) (d)   

The link to the Visual Flight Guide is https://vfrg.casa.gov.au/  and its probably easier to read if you click the link (which is at the bottom of the page) "download pdf version"

You may already have read all this, but from the speed of your reply suggesting grey areas, I've provided the links just in case.

2 hours ago, jackc said:

Sadly, it will all come back to money and who is prepared to pay.

I know how to fix a lot of things, buts a waste of time suggesting any ideas that may cost money.......because,  IF it’s too expensive it’s cheaper to simply apply more restrictions than just suck up the cost and fix it properly.

You will see people give up, and go do their own thing.......which may end up illegal.   I am near EOL and fast running out of F....s to give when getting drowned in useless regulatory b/s.

Witness our current ASA airspace debacle, as a start.  The b/s about RAA getting 760kg MTOW etc.......just FIX it all properly and let people get on with their lives.......

Those two subjects are long term discussion items; they weren't under discusssion in the AUF days; they aren't part of the current scene; they are just discussions. In both cases there are issues for GA, so it's quite possible that neither wil even happen, so there's no point in getting all upset about things which are not within the approvals and control of Recreational Aviation Australia. There are plenty of freedoms there without crossing over into no man's land.

......sidle closer to Loxton who sidled away. He was a family man.

How did you get here?  asked bull, scratching his..........

.........Vaperon II on the road at 70 km/hr."

Cappy knew he was in for a big fine, but just then bull came round the corner.

NES readers may not know that when bull left bone in the old F100 ute pulling a tri axle trailer with his Tyro, Jacka, and Cricket on board, he stopped off in Wagga, specifically to see if the BoB was really true or just another imagination from the NES.

He could not believe the size of the venue, a bit like the old Flamingo in Las Vegas, he couldn't believe the sound, and he couldn't believe that the local Highway Patrol Officer, Constable Doubtfire would be there doing her routine every 30 minutes., and sat through six sessions drooling.

As bull walked around the Range Rover and saw her, they sky turned gold and music started to play. Doubtfire recognised the toothless look, and started to sway.

Cappy grabbed her notebook as she swooned, and ............

53 minutes ago, jackc said:

There are ‘underground’ flyers out there 🙂. They just need to get together and organise some clandestine ‘fly parties’ 🙂

Could be great weekend fun, trailer your aircraft to the location and away you go!

Sound like fun......you betcha! 

You appear to be promoting illegal flying.

Just so you know, several ASA employees are very welcome regulars on here.

14 minutes ago, jackc said:

Then you get to find out GOOD the RAA insurance is, something else I have little faith in these days.....it’s not ‘insurance’ anymore, its risk mitigation on varying levels usually dictated by how many pages the PDS is.......

No good growling about it. These are the times we live in.

37 minutes ago, jackc said:

Let me say this.....I have been told in a phone call to RAA that they are not worried whether you glue your 19 rego aircraft with bluetack, IF an aircraft crashes and the Coroner reports on his/her findings including a safety problem?   Coroner sees the words ‘Amateur Built Aircraft’ and closes that case.......next please.

In other words RAA does administration of the sector and has no responsibility.

No, I won’t say who told me that.......buses are mongrel things to get thrown under......

So I have to ask WHY do I need to be an RAA member, WHY register my aircraft with them?   IF all that is the case WHY do I even need an RPC?   

Someone has a LOT of study to do. A Coroner decides the cause of death. In the case of an amateur built aircraft crash the Police investigate the crash, call in RAA to assist when there are technical matter and present a brief to the Coroner. Independent of this, the family of the deceased or the injured victim can sue whoever breached their  duty of car, starting with you, the pilot if you were negligent even if it was accidental. This will be heard in.a Civil Court. If the Court finds you , or anyone associated with the flight whether building the aircraft, teaching you, owning the airstrip etc. Self Administration is self administration and RA aircraft fly under exemption from certain regulations on condition that it self regulates.

1 hour ago, jackc said:

In other words the system is a mess.......that is not going to get any better?

It's not a mess; Kasper has pointed out an issue.

As a Self Administering organisation, RAA carries the Public Liability for ALL the import, construction and operations of aircraft, and for the people it trains to flying them and their operations and for the people who maintain them.

Where someone is killed or injured, and there is an allegation that RAA breached its duty of care, RAA is likely to be a Defendant, and ultimately this could affect shareholders pockets.

RAA needs to train and Audit LAMES for that reason; they probably wouldn't need a lot of training, so it would be possible for RAA to protect its members' access to repair facilities by developing a Subsidy policy.