turboplanner

Mazda has its SKYactiv, and I just knew Honda, who are close on power, better on fuel economy would have named their design. Lifted the nonnet this morning to hose the dust out and there it was the Honda "Earth Dreams" engine. Perfect for our Millenials.

1 hour ago, peterg said:

I have flown the J120, 160, 170 & 230 and have not experienced any type specific control problem similar to some described above. I have flown many other types in GA, RA-Aus & GFA and have experienced type specific peculiarities. The J170 requires a bit of skill to avoid float. The J230 may be the same due to wing similarities but I have not experienced it.

 

An observation - I know a L2 who specialises in Jabirus and he has undertaken wheel alignment correction on a few. That said, it is a maintenance item that is often overlooked and many types probably have an issue but whether it affects handling adversely is not proven to my knowledge.

 

Some of the above comments are unhelpful, unproven and not evidence based - reeks a bit of "Jab Bashing" which I had hoped had died a natural. 

 

Comments from those that have no or little type experience, those that haven't flown anything for a loooong time and those that feel the uncontrolled need to comment on absolutely every item raised on this Forum can be misleading.

 

Personally, I prefer the comments from the "bush lawyers" as I usually get a good laugh.

 

 

If you are searching for the truth you can go directly to the Accidents section on the RAA site, and I'd suggest scrolling through from around  2007 to the two cases listed for November 2021, and you will have an unbiased, non Jab Bashing, non bush lawyer version of how many runway excursions, where they occurred, how they finished up and what make and model of aircraft was involved.

The thread has drifted with some people referring to completely different subjects, and this just happens; it doesn't imply any link with excursions, but these claims are also easily searchable from the same database.

7 minutes ago, horsefeathers said:

 

I admit that if you land with the nosegear first, you are in for a whole world of hurt. But that is the same for any tricycle aircraft.

 

You have to screw up the landing method to produce it; you answered your own question. If you land on the mains and let the aircraft settle itself you’re not going to experience it.

....approving the Drifter with the 582 YellowHead. He'd always been suspicious about Holmes Ahlock, who had earned his money for years writing detective stories under the name Sherlock Holmes, and he was a devious as a fruit bat.

Jeronimous Turbine was the product of his father Billy Turbine who started out in the Pacos gunfighting at the age of fifteen, and the daughter of Geronimo, a vicious Apache leader.

So Jeronimous was not exactly a calm and measured person to deal with, and he told Scott MorrisMinor to cancel the regustration. Scott MorrisMinor was everybody's friend and .................

...Excessive Combustive Fire Syndrome.

Not many people know that ECFS was first discovered by Joshua Turbine in 1876 when he attended the Gumly Gumly Show and found Holmes Ahlock in front of a tent spruiking that he could start a fire by stroking the breast of a beautiful woman. Wagga locals poured in, not flinching at the entry fee of 7s3p, all clearly interested in the phenomenon of instant fire. What the crowd didn't know was that he'd ordered a crate of ACME Instant Matches which Buffalo Bill Cody used in an act with Annie Oakley. Holmes's model, Mavis Gumly who was one of THE Gumlys was not match for Annie Oakley in looks, figure, or shooting ability. Mavis couldn't hit a shot with a barn.

However Mavis bared her ample bosom, and Holmes struck it with a match which burnt brightly, and he sold so many boxes of matches that he was able to pay Mavis's hospital bill, and build a recreational aircraft. He bought the engine from Hiram Turbine who'd just built a new engine called a two stroke. He designated the model "582 Yellow Head" after General Custer (Australia didn't have military heroes yet) Holmes put the 582 Yellow Head in his recreational aircraft he named "Drifter", but forgot to ...............................

.......ears. It is said at the Wagga Wagga Fire Station that Loxie can hear a fire crackling almost before the home owner rings 000, but it's also been said by some of the lower ranks that he fans the flames. Loxie .........................

3 minutes ago, RFguy said:

 

Nev you are right about the idle- My Jab behaved quite dfferently with 850RPM ground idle versus 1000 RPM idle....

I have a hypothesis about these wheel barrows landings..... :

If sailing along the runway a foot above, due to too much airspeed , (which is what happens) there *might* be a tendency to point the nose down to get it on the ground , when very close to the ground.

 

In these excess airspeed conditions, application of elevator to try and increase the flare, as to bring on a bit of drag, and nose up , slow it down etc will  generally generate a balloon unless carefully applied. She will fly off a few kts above stall.

So, the operator needs to either apply that flare oh-so-carefully, but in any case, runway gets chewed up.  And if it is  short strip - well I think a go around is a must.   There there is a puff of headwind, will that will send you up also, more so if again, excessive airspeed.  

 

So, I think that is where the wheel barrow landings might come from - a nose down command very close to the ground , You can  wait (and wait)  in the very gradually increasing  flare (and chew runway) or a go around .

You beat me to it!

3 minutes ago, RFguy said:

 

10 minutes ago, RFguy said:

I think the POH speeds for the J230 for benign condix are 5 kts too high. Well it might be OK with lots of runway , but IMO you are in a vulnerable phase floating along the runway a few kts above minimum flying speed in all but benign condix.

A lot of non-related comments have crept into the thread, so people are now talking about a variety of issues. If you come in too fast, you'll float longer but otherwise have an uneventful landing unless you get blown across by a crosswind. Long landings always leave you vulnerable to crosswinds for longer, so, as you've done, knowing your speeds is 101.

If for some reason when the float seems too long, you disregard your training and leave the throttle on but try to make it go lower by pushing the stick forward, you've just set yourself up for a bounce/;wheelbarrow.

 

1 minute ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

Why is the Jabiru such a difficult plane to fly?

 

Seems to require above average pilot skills for what is generally a low performance aircraft by comparison with some others.

It doesn't require above average pilot skills, just correct RA training.

........biceps, with Loxie's reading "FO".  Not everyone ......

27 minutes ago, RFguy said:

Certainly the J230 and likely J170 want to takeoff 20 knots below the speciifed T.O.S.S.  so you actively need to make some decisions there as pitching up early will simply result in more runway used as the drag increases with AOA premature- but needs to be teamed with weight off the nosehweel.  

 

But !!! weight coming off  the nosewheel at minimum flying speed (but not T.O.S.S) with stick neutral   is usually self fullfilling and orderly   IF the correct elevator  trim has been selected prior to roll. 

 

I've had one situation on landing (Jabiru) where after landing and in the rolling,. at a time with relatively little experience on type, my feet were asleep and resulting in some 'corrective action' to get it back straight onto the centreline... my ppl pax remarked that probably would have resulted in a ground loop in a tailwheel. 

 

However, on landing or TO   I've never experienced any tendency to wheelbarrow  .

and I've never noticed any misbehaviour on takeoff , since you have to be on the pedals on TO like a tiger to keep it straight , and that usually ensures no issues

 

If you come in on Final using Throttle for rate of descent and elevators for speed, you will be holding the stick back slightly and coming in with a nose up attitude including after the round out, so you will always be landing on the mains, and if, when the mains touch down you have the stick right back and leave it there the nose wheel will settle as the aircraft slows and will settle further down the runway at a speed slower than stall, so it gets an easy life and you are unlikely ever to wheelbarrow becaise you have the nose wheel in the air when you touch down. HOWEVER, and it's hard to believe, there are some instructors out there who teach the point and shoot method, using elevators to point the nose at the runway and throttle to control speed. And if the aircraft comes in with the nose pointing at the runway, guess which wheel is likely to hit first unless the student remembers to change tactics.

There shouldn't be issues taking off since the prop is pulling you straight and you just have to apply steady rudder to counter the initial engine torque for a while. Your feet will adjust this subconsciously as you go on, so you'll be less like a tiger; there's no fixed point when this happens; we're all different, but one day you'll suddenly realise your feet have been working the pedals by themselves.

.....FireOne!, a rapid response team able to get to a fire, put it out, brief the press, and have a cup of tea back at the base before the Wagga Wagga Fire Brigade led by Captain Loxie arrived at the scene. Turbo and Loxie jointly announced they were about to franchise the system Australia - wide and also to New Zealand and Tasmania, much like Jim's Mowing, and without a ..................

For those who haven't heard of a Jab wheelbarrowing or veering off the strip, These two current instances took all of two minutes to find.

RAA takes the time to collate short reports on all incidents and accidents for each month, and make them readily available on the Website to help other pilots who may not be aware of the risks.

These are not ATSB standard, and don't need to be to drive home critical lessons.

30/10/21 Jabiru J239C

.......rounded out well but landed flat, bounced off the nose wheel, ballooned, bounced off the nose wheel a second time, ballooned again, bounced off the nose wheel heavily a third time and did a go round ....................propellor tip squared off, nose wheel spat damaged.

29/11/21 Jabiru J160 - C

The aircraft touched down on a private strip then veered suddenly to the left........................the aircraft rolled and came to rest inverted.

31 minutes ago, JEM said:

I flew Jabs of all models except 250 for 11 years (owned one for 7) and never had a nosewheel or wheelbarrowing event nor heard of one either.  

You probably flew them correctly.

16 minutes ago, onetrack said:

How the dickens did he do that? The wind was reportedly 6-9kts from the SE at the time, turning Southerly and lighter now. Did he get hit by a wind gust?

 

Those buildings are at the end of the runway! He went a lo-o-ong way off the runway, to do that! 

Also, the airport cam didn't pick up his excursion, or even his landing?

 

https://www.windy.com/-Outdoor-map-map?map,-35.475,138.747,18

 

A LOT of Jabs reported in the RAA accidents section of the magazine land nose down and wheelbarrow in a semi circle off the runway with about a quarter of them finishing up resting on nose or wing, or upside down.   This accident may have had nothing to do with that, but that manouvre is close to No1 in the RAA Magazine.

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

Definitely not - however my understanding of CAD  is that you impose the parameters you want. So we (including my Son, the CAD person) will start with data from a series of digital photographs. From this we will be able to create 3 dimensional images, that can be manipulated to suit the dimensions we select. One of the most important dimensions will be engine movement clearance. Hence my question . The next  question for the Forum will be inlet air apertures - what size?

Good luck with it.

You've abandoned CAD?

25 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Not a sonex or 912, my RV6a has only 3mm between the spinner and cowl. It has not touched.  Googled some sonex cowl images and it would seem that there is plenty of room. The advantage of a small dry sump engine.  

He could achieve the same clearance as you provided his engine mounts were on the same arc radius, and had the same flex as yours.

You've picked the hardest job to do.

My recommendation is to set datum points in length width and height for the aircraft frame and the engine so the 3D CAD drawing can be made very accurate. This might mean welding up a simple bracket in two or three planes so you can accurately measure from the datum. (beats pulling the engine out 17 times trying to get the fit right.

I would try to get an engine mount test-flex figure from Rotax for a given set of mount locations (OK has made reference to the movement being related to where you place the mounts). You may be able to get a table of flex figures based on mount positions, but there's no point asking other people how much their engine flexes unless they can provide accurate mount dimensions (MANY people have been caught by that one)

Then ALL accessories should be temp bolted on to the engine, and bolted inside the engine bay. (I just recently fitted a larger battery into a very compact car space and had to take the battery out about 17 times, each time shaving this or that bracket or relocating a sub assembly - if you measure correctly that cal all be done on the CAD system.)

Then all the items required to be withdrawn as part of preflight or servicing, for example dip stick, and oil filter - there should be enough room for the item to have a removal path, spanner space and finger space.

Then all the things you think you might like to fit down the track should be considered, and manufacturers drawing used to put that into the CAD drawings to save a lot of heartache down the track.

To a degree your firewall cross section and prop centreline will determine your cowl clearance, but if everything has deen included in the CAD drawings your can play around with clearances.

52 minutes ago, lyle janke said:

hi all my fellow forum readers 

 i find my self in a delima  with an expired BFR   new plane to take delivery of & COVID to deal with in achieving the aforementioned 

 is there suitably Qualified  people  about that would travel to conduct a BFR  in a remote location or near by 

 let me know your thoughts or if you can help 

 PM or forum your ideas 

 thanks lyle 

I delivered an Airport Refueller for Shell  on a car carrier to Kununurra, and it developed an air leak in one of the gearshift lines a week after delivery, so it was a warranty item and Shell didn't want to touch it in case they got it wrong and damaged the transmission. They'd phoned me in Melbourne on Friday, and I tried to find a mechanic in Kununurra but didn't have any luck so I phoned our Darwin Service Manager 500 km away, and he didn't have any better information because Kununurra was a WA (Perth) responsibility. So I started preparing a phone lits of possible mechanics I cold get to Kununurra to start phoning around Monday.

The Darwin sales manager phoned me first thing Monday and told me the truck was fixed. He'd grabbed his tools, got a ride out with a Mines aircraft returning workers from Darwin Sunday morning. They dropped him off at Kununurra, the Shell guy was waiting, they fixed the truck and the Mines aircraft took him back to Darwin, all at no cost.    I was thinking you may be lucky enough to get somethng like that to take you to the instructor or him to you.

...........and the story slowed as people tried to think of a word. This was like Deja Vu all over again when Cappy was singled out as being rude and using naughty words, and the narrative slowed for several days as people went to the libraries to find dictionaries, and ..........

3 hours ago, planedriver said:

HELP!

We desperately need more input into this thread which has been purely dominated for far too long by just a very few, that I like others have have given up on it which is a shame.

It used to be a great thread enjoyed by so many, and fun for all, but domination has become over-bearing.

So, if any forumites have something to offer to offer which is enjoyable to many, please let's help restore it to something along the lines of what it was many years ago.

Yes, I may be a miserable old bastard, but years ago, so many contributed, and it was fun for ALL, not just those who contribute under a various alias's. 

No personal offence intended to those currently involved, but out of the many thousands of members we have, surely we can do a lot better?

If you've not added something humorous, now is your chance. Don't be shy.

Kindest regards, and all the very best wished for the New Year.

Planey.

PS I can't help but wonder how many old members feel the same as i do.

Sorry to even have to ask this, but the truth would be better known for whatever reason if it makes all our enjoyment of this site more enjoyable.

For general information there is no barrier to posting in this thread...... you just lead in from what the last person quote, and you end with a word which let's the next person post.

3 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

You can look up the Wheels magazine review on their website. They compared the Skyactiv compression ignition engine to the old one. The fuel economy was the same. The new engine was 16% more powerful. Considering the expense in development and production, passed to the consumer, not a good outcome. Not to mention probable shorter engine life.  

As I mentioned, the difference between Mazda and what might be the fuel leader in the 2 litre class, Honda is about $20 to $30 in a Melbourne-Gold Coast trip.

Mazda are set to go forward and meet coming emissions,and have been able to get an increase in power.

The bar for engine life in this class is at least the first ownership, but preferebly the second or third; that way the economics are affordable to families and their children.

I'm not suggesting SKYactive is a world-beater which will crush the oppostition, just that it's made some achievements. Other manufacturers are also moving into new technology. What I am suggesting is that this is the most exciting class of cars in terms of going forward to meet the new emphasis on CO2 reduction plus continuing reduction in NOx  (we are already at 97% reduction on Particulate Matter and 98% reduction on NOx since 1992), while still achieving minimal fuel consumption.

In the past we have seen the whole industry, in just falling over the line for a new level of emission compliance, being released with lower power and higher fuel consumption.  This is what happened around Euro IV with diesel engines and manufacturers who committed to EGR (Exhaust gas recycling). Those who couldn't afford the development opted to continue to use their older engines and hose the particulates down by injecting Urea into the exhausts, so for a time they were selling more power and better fuel economy.

23 minutes ago, jackc said:

I am waiting for someone to stick their head up out of the 2 stroke smoke and research demand for a bolt in replacement for the 503/582 engines.  IF Rotax runs out of spares, there will be an aftermarket supply?  China has a habit of doing this.  2 years ago I was looking for Toyota 12R parts, and found I could buy a complete drop in crate copy motor from China.   Now the Toyota 12R would have not been a high demand motor, I would have thought.  Last sold in about 1983?  

How long before the first engine flies?

The primary issue with two stroke is that it could not be designed for the emissions levels of two or three stages ago let along what's coming up.

The fuel consumption is secondary to that, and not really a problem in the smaller two stroke operations which have tended to be short time.

I was interested to see a comment earlier about someone putting up an argument for a non-auto engine to be exempted from emission standards.

In Australia, our whole automotive and transport industries only account for about 10% of CO2 emissions, yet governments ignored the 90% of industry and focused on cars and trucks.   Recreational aircraft may well represent 0.01% of the automotive and transport industries so an exemption would be reasonable, and should have been started when there was plenty of 2 stroke stock around.

However in this discussion about Higgs engines we should be looking at the future and the new engines currently going into cars which do meet the present and coming emission standards and do use new ways to absolutely minimise the fuel being processed through the engine. Common rail fuel injection, CDI and CI/Spark has had engines ticking instead of bellowing since about 2015. It might be that an engine could be adapted for slow rpm operation and compact water cooling in,lieu of high rpm/redrive/watercooling.