old man emu

How much per aircraft would that have been?

12 minutes ago, onetrack said:

I think you need to re-adjust your figure upwards.

Thanks for your comment. I can see that insurance and hiring amenities are going to be our big expenses that I will have to consider. Plus printing and prizes.

What would you be prepared to pay as an entry fee, bearing in mind that we don't want to scare people away. If we had our d'ruthers, it would be free.

I need advice on a couple of things.

Attached are route details. The map is my assessment map, so it's not an accurate WAC and has some alternate routes drawn on it. Based on the distances involved, would your aircraft have the endurance to do it non-stop. I hope to be able to arrange avgas at Coonamble, Walgett and Coonabarabran. Would you be prepared to use avgas for this event if you could not get mogas? If I can get sponsorship from fuel suppliers, I hope to get mogas at Tooraweenah.

The other thing is the entry fee. The Museum is not organising this to make big bucks for itself, although a bit of extra dosh would be appreciated. However, there's lots of costs involved, like that beastly Bunyip called Insurance and printing. We intend to have a perpetual trophy and a miniature for winners. Competitors will be paying out a lot just to compete, so we don't want to be picking already threadbare pockets. We are proposing an entry fee of fifty dollars ($50.00)

Please come back with your inputs.

OME

Indicative Times.docx

5 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

In some parts of Europe the pubs are supplied via pipelines from breweries. If they can install beer pipelines across historic cities, why can’t we install fuel pipelines before it gets congested? 

Clever country.

Number one would be the cost of acquiring the land at Sydney prices. Then the environ-mentals would crack up about damage to the already created environmental desert that is the Sydney Metropolitan Area. They are creating a big enough stink about all the civil engineering for the whole of the infrastructure. 

On 25/09/2022 at 1:29 PM, pmccarthy said:

Mike Dalton is a member of our club and specialises in aviation risks. [email protected] +61 419369678
 

Emailed him last night.

I don't want this insurance business to cause the show to be cancelled. Too many people have said they'd love to participate.

Been to Luskintyre to see the Comper Swifts and saw the work one mob was doing. Mind boggling. I've emailed the mob who created the Serpentine rules. Just waiting on a reply

16 hours ago, facthunter said:

Well, I wouldn't like the task of rectifying it. In my own way I've consistently advised good preparation and caution and "never stop learning". I don't really know if it makes any difference.   Nev

Does the comment "Hasn't enough sense to come in out of the rain" have some application here?

Not being an insurance guru, the way I read that rule was, "If you want to play in my sandbox, you have to bring band-aids for everyone." In other words, if you hurt someone, playing in a game I organised, don't drag me into your litigation.

I'd hate to have to say, "Well it was a good idea, and there was a lot of interest, but the cost of insurance killed it."

I'd also like to hear from anyone who participated in that Serpentine Tiger Race to find out what that rule actually meant.

12 hours ago, walrus said:

if poor weather decision making appears to be a common factor in a relatively large number of incidents

In analysing anything, you can't simply use the end result  - in this case events that lead to at least one fatality. You have to go deeper and look at the factors - Operator, Device, Environment operated in. If you replace "poor weather" with any other factor likely to produce an accident then you can see the cause and work on that. If you looked at the cause of all fatal incidents over the past 50 years, I wonder if EFOTO would not come out on top. Then you have to dig into the causes of each EFOTO. 

So, harping on about the number of fatalities takes us nowhere. As an example, the mantra for road safety is  "Speed kills". There is no deeper examination of the actual cause of a collision. As a result of applying that, we get speed detection equipment used in places where there is no history of serious or fatal collisions. As a result, the normal practice is to keep an eye out for speed detection equipment, and having located it, pass and speed up.

To prove the stupidity of that approach, I drive on a rural highway with a speed limit of 110 kph. The recent rain events have resulted in isolated potholes forming in otherwise good road surfaces. The potholes are deep and are impossible to detect at night. If a car is travelling up to the speed limit, and one of it's front wheel enters one of these potholes the driver could lose control and veer to one side of the road or the other, colliding with a big tree or a big rig, depending which way it veered. Was that incident caused by unlawful speeding?

If the bulk storage facility for Jet-A1 is still at Clyde, then the route to Nancy Bird-Walton Airport places less stress on the road system than if the fuel was taken from Botany.

Here's the story from a different place https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/09/no-pipeline-means-trucks-to-take-fuel-to-western-sydney-airport/

Campbelltown Labor MP Greg Warren said, “When the operation reaches full capacity, the airport could potentially require 50 to 65 B-double fuel tanker deliveries per day, which would add to congestion on Sydney’s urban road network."

That's a typical comment made for political point-scoring. Even though made by a Labor Member, you could expect the same if the Libs or any other Opposition Party said it, so it's not worth the breath it took to say it.

Here's the route most likely to be taken from Port Botany to Nancy Bird-Walton Airport:

That route is already taken by hundreds of B-Doubles all day, every day. The only times that the fuel trucks would be affected by heavy traffic volumes are during the morning peak hours on the M7 and the afternoon peak hours on the M5. Between 7:00 pm and 5:00 am you could shoot a cannon along those Motorways and not hit much at all.

14 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

That sounds problematic.

Plagiarise! Plagiarise! Don't let anything evade your eyes.

If anyone was a competitor in the 2022 Serpentine Air Race involving Tiger Moths, they will recognise those rules. So the goal must be achievable. The question is if the requirement would stop anyone from being able to participate. 

I need some feedback on this Rule for the Event. The liability of the Organisers needs to be protected. Will RULE 3.3 cause an interested participant to have to give the event a miss?

RULE 3.2

The pilot-in-command nominated on the entry form will be required to produce for the

scrutineers:

(e) Evidence of insurance cover in accordance with the requirements of paragraph 3.3 of these rules

RULE 3.3

The evidence of insurance cover as required by Rule 3.2 (e) shall take the following form:

An endorsement note from the aircraft's insurance company which states that its Third

Party and Passenger Liability insurance (in respect of that aircraft):

1.     Has been extended to include the Arthur Butler Trophy Event, and

2.     Has been endorsed to include as the insured the organisers, Arthur Butler Aviation Museum Inc., for their respective rights, interests, and liabilities under that policy, and

3.     The sum assured shall be a be a minimum sum of $5,000,000 for Third Party and

$5,000,000 for Passenger Liability.

4.     The policy must insure the entrant, crew, passengers and those persons representatives and employers against liability arising out of the participation in this event in respect of such persons and the aircraft.

All entrants should contact their own broker or underwriter with whom the aircraft is normally insured to ensure that the requirements of these rules are complied with prior to the commencement of the event.

If some part of it causes a problem, which part and why.

Thanks

On 21/09/2022 at 7:44 PM, Bruce Tuncks said:

Good onyer

Bruce!

At this stage - Saturday 14th April 2023, but you are welcome to arrive on the 13th (oops!) 

Please bear in mind that I have only been putting this event together for the past few days. I'll be providing more information shortly.

I suppose I should set a date for the closure of entries. How about 31st March 2023?

4 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

I suggest sending the fastest first so there is no danger of slow planes getting rear-ended.

So. Where in the pack will you start?

Just a heads-up but also seeking some advice.

Arthur Butler Aviation Museum Inc. is planning to hold its inaugural Winging it Down the Castlereagh event on Saturday 15th April 2023 with a recovery breakfast to send people off on Sunday 16th.

Participants will be competing for the Butler Air Transport Co Trophy. The proposed event is basically an On Track - On Time event. It's the pilot/navigators against themself. The idea is that the participants will fly a sort of square route starting at Tooraweenah and passing over Gilgandra and Coonamble along the Castlereagh River, NSW to Walgett then crossing to Pilliga to Baradine, then IFR (I Follow Railways) to Coonabarabran and back to Tooraweenah. I estimate the circuit would take just on 3 hours at 90 kts, still air, not counting climbing to cruise altitude. The winner would be the pilot whose ATA at Tooraweenah was closest to their pre-departure ETA. Along the way, crews would be required to locate significant landmarks and record them, and their passing over the several aerodrome, with a time stamped photo.

As I am in the planning stages I'd appreciate some help setting up the event. Firstly, all timing will begin from a standing start at the drop of a steward's flag. But what is the safest way to record ATA? I was thinking of marking a landing zone on the runway and having several stewards there to record the time that an aircraft touched down.

I know that there could be anything from a puddle-jumper to a light twin having a go, so would it be an idea to group aircraft by stated still air cruise speed, so that the slowest get off first and the speedster leave last?

The idea would be for crews to arrive by 10:00am for a briefing, then start sending them off about 10:30 so that they would be back by mid-afternoon to stand around and talk male bovine technical talk. 

For Saturday night, would people like to gather at the Local, or have an outdoor gathering on the airport?  Some accommodation is available in Tooraweenah for the early birds who book it, otherwise it's under the wing.

More information as well as The Rules and Entry forms will be on our website ( as soon as someone close to me allocates some time to create it). In the meantime, if you have some constructive suggestions that would help make this a good, fun event please email me at [email protected]

And don't forget to let your mates know this is going to happen.

Thanks in advance,

Old Man Emu

2 hours ago, RFguy said:

if you can download the graphics file

No good. They are in pdf format.

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

A paper WAC is 552 wide by 443 high.

Thanks. I'll work on those figures.

Somehow I've been able to download a WAC I need in pdf format. But I can't remember how I did it as I want to download another one. Any help?

Also, now that I have one chart that I want to use as a pdf file, what size sheet of paper does it have to be printed on so that distances on the map match the scale on my ruler? 

Old Man Emu 

Strewth! Coonabarabran on the 10/11th, then Narromine on the 15-17th. Will I ever be at home? If I get the bike behaving itself, I might ride it over there. Otherwise it's the car and a funny hat.

Sorry, Avgas is not available at Coonabarabran from the Aero Club unless you are a member.

Need some answers, please

1.  What grade of Mogas is required at Tooraweenah?

2.  How many carry a collapsible fuel container to get fuel from a servo to the plane?

3. Would you be happy to borrow a 20 litre container; fill it yourself, and then take it from the servo to your plane? We'd transport you from servo to plane.

Variable pitch props were not common in English aircraft in the 1930s when both the Anson and De Haviland Dragon were designed. The Anson has twice the MTOW of the Dragon, and its much more powerful engines give it a cruising speed of 137 kts against the Dragon's 95. Can you imagine flying from Bourke to Tooraweenah in a Dragon on an Outback Summer's day? Overall distance would near be doubled if you accounted for the vertical distances the aircraft would have travelled in air pocets.

The Anson wasn't available in Australia in its  original civil guise until surplus military ones became available at the end of WWII. Then they replaced the Dragons.

All pre-WWII wooden-winged aircraft suffered from the failure of glued joints due to a lack of anti-fungal/bacterial glues, or glues having better setting qualities due to the chemicals they were made from.  AC 43-13 states "Resorcinol is the only known adhesive recommended and approved for use in wooden aircraft structure and fully meets necessary strength and durability requirements" for certificated aircraft. Resorcinol-formaldehyde resin glue is very strong and durable which was introduced into aircraft manufacture in 1943,

Avgas at Coonabarabran, Coonamble, which are likely to be waypoints for the event. Also at Dubbo and Narromine. Check your WAC

Mogas could be obtained by arrangement, but in light of the risk of litigation, ?????

The Arthur Butler Aviation Museum at Tooraweenah is exploring the idea of hosting a bit of flying fun next April/May when the weather is at its best.

The idea for the activity is to carry out a practical test for the position of PIC on a Butler Air Transport route. Participants will be given a route starting at Tooraweenah to return after passing over a number of waypoints. Crews will submit a flight plan indicating their estimated time of return to Tooraweenah. The position will be given to the crew whose actual time is closest to their ETA. In order to deal with dead heats, crews will be required to locate landmarks en route, and there may be some touch & goes at a place or two. It is expected that the flight time would be about 2 hours, based on a cruise speed of 90 kts. (Haven't worked out the route yet.) 

The idea would be to leave Tooraweenah about 1100 am to get back mid-afternoon. There would be a dinner in town where a guest speaker would award the PIC job. Accommodation in town could be booked, or crews could camp under the wing.

So, would this be a goer?

After the war a lot went into civilian use.  Butler Air Transport had a couple. The NSW Police one was named "Nemesis". The Sydney Morning Herald had VH-SMH