Problems landing the Jabiru 230

[JohnSim]

I have been flying GA for fifty years mainly light twins and heavy singles. When I land the Piper lance I normally hold a trickle of power until the wheels touch and I make consistently good landings. I am looking at buying a Jabiru 230 and before buying decided to do a few circuits with an instructor. He told me not to use a trickle of power during the flare but to power off completely before the flare. When I did this the aircraft sank rapidly and all my landings were hard and inconsistent. In the past I have always carried a trickle of power through the flare and had no problems.

 

I have been told so many different things I am not sure what is the correct method.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Cooda]

It’s been a few years since I last flew a Jabiru 230 but I would just start the flare before completely closing the throttle and found the landings to be pretty smooth. (At least my passengers consistently expressed happiness with them.)

 

My takeoffs on the other hand………….

[CT9000]

I suspect that the problem is that you are used to a fair bit of inertia which light stuff does not have. Light slippery aircraft require accuracy and comparatively quicker reflexes. 

[facthunter]

Just keep the weight off the Nosewheel. Even a higher than normal engine idle speed will Make a J 230 float. You don't want to use up extra runway. Maybe your flare height is a bit low. Do some slow speed flying at Height to get a better feel how it feels when slow. It's a Plane that needs to be flown very precisely but will handle gusts etc well when you are used to it.. Again, Keep the weight off the Nosewheel especially on take offs. Fly accurate airspeeds.  Allow a bit more when you are Heavy, or it's Gusty. Nev 

[skippydiesel]

For what its worth;

 

I have done most of my BFR's in a Jab. Their landing characteristic's are (to me) a challenge

My early transitional training from PPL to RAA Cert emphasised a glide approach. This seems to have been ditched in favour of a powered Final.

If memory serves, carry power according to your GA training, ie use it, on Final, to adjust attitude. Have your "trickle" of power as long as you wish, even to Flair & Touch Down

I have always perceive Jab landings to be fast.

 

😈

[JohnSim]

32 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

For what its worth;

 

I have done most of my BFR's in a Jab. Their landing characteristic's are (to me) a challenge

My early transitional training from PPL to RAA Cert emphasised a glide approach. This seems to have been ditched in favour of a powered Final.

If memory serves, carry power according to your GA training, ie use it, on Final, to adjust attitude. Have your "trickle" of power as long as you wish, even to Flair & Touch Down

I have always perceive Jab landings to be fast.

 

😈

Yes,I agree. I have always used a trickle of power in landing with GA aircraft and have managed to do consistently good landings. However, some have been more firm than others.  I watched this video by Ian Mcdonald from Gawler and he teaches some power throughout the flare. A glide approach has not worked for me. 

 

[sfGnome]

I learned on a 160 (some years ago), and was taught to cut to idle when I was guaranteed to make the field. When I did a check flight in a 160 earlier this year (because it was the cheapest aircraft to hire), I dumped it on the ground for the first few landings. Turns out that it drops like a stone when you get too slow. The issue wasn’t that I was gliding; it was that I was letting the speed bleed off too soon (ie I was flaring too soon). That’s the fun of a high wing - no cushion of air between the wing and the ground - and flying low wing had got me into being a bit lazy. 

[sfGnome]

Serendipitously, I came across this article tonight which has some useful stuff to say about this. 

[JohnSim]

Very interesting article.

[Hohocc]

I have never flown any Jab so can't comment specifically.

However, if the firm landing is with a lot of up elevator applied (that is elevator position, not necessarily force applied), and closing the throttle makes it difficult/impossible to keep the nose up, then flaring/landing with some power on seems reasonable. There are a few aeroplanes that are like this at forward CG positions. 

If the firmness is due to a lack of up elevator being applied then power use is unlikely to be the issue, the issue is likely use of elevator, or lack of. Not at all unusual if flying a type that is unfamiliar, or somewhat different from previous types which a Lance to a Jab would be a good example of. 

The above assumes of course that the flare is started at around the right position, which given you've got a long history of flying is probably a reasonable assumption.

As long as you are landing at your aiming point on the runway at around the right speed, you're about right and the rest is "nice to have", including smoothness.   

[facthunter]

 I "converted" a couple of owners of "heavier" VH planes to the J 230 and they  found them a bit challenging initially. A powered approach is normal. It's a matter of putting in the effort, and responding to what the plane is doing in the flare.  Not doing it by numbers. It's more of a "Milk the Mouse" thing. to be on the ball. Nev

[JohnSim]

7 minutes ago, facthunter said:

 I "converted" a couple of owners of "heavier" VH planes to the J 230 and they  found them a bit challenging initially. A powered approach is normal. It's a matter of putting in the effort, and responding to what the plane is doing in the flare.  Not doing it by numbers. It's more of a "Milk the Mouse" thing. to be on the ball. Nev

Thanks Nev, so, are you saying to milk off a bit of power in the flare to soften the rate of descent?

[facthunter]

No, Unless you are much too fast leave it till the wheels are about to touch. If you keep things the same. Power and attitude the plane will continue to do what it is already doing and you aren't watching Airspeed as you flare but there can be some windshear AND higher temps over the runway. Even with a highwing there is still ground effect which can help you in  critical situations where your speed is slow. Do not EVER land on the Nosewheel and if you aren't happy on the Approach, Go around with carb heat off. Check every time. Nev

[RFguy]

Hello everyone, I am back in the living.
I agree about the inertia comment.

1) what are your flapless approach / landings like in the 230 ? Tried that ? The extra speed will mean you are carrying a alot more inertia (and maybe give you a little more time) 

2) are your flares performed with the stall horn blaring ? In benign conditions, I would recommend that be a telltale of the right airspeed for a J230

 

Like most planes, you never want to let them get too slow. depending on the plane, you run out of a varied number of performance requirements (tail authority, elevator authority,  roll authority) 

I found when I first flew my 230, I wasnt letting it get slow enough in the flare, so I learned to fly is an inch above the deck - the feel and touch of just the right amount of back stick is quite tricky and very fine..... IE first few attempts resulted in balooning at low speed (bad) and resultant go arounds .
Jabs with winglets, especially high aspect wings like the 230 and the 170, the induced drag increases very little as the wing gets slow. as a result, the wing tends to just fly and fly until suddenly it doesnt. compared to my PA28 wing that the wing gets mushier and mushier but there isnt any sudden death a few inches off the ground like the jab.  Glen.

Edited August 23 by RFguy

[facthunter]

They CAN float a fair way IF your approach is fast and the idle speed is a bit high. React early if runway length is limited. In gusty conditions active throttle is the Only way to touch down precisely where you want to. and if you're TOO slow hit that throttle. It's also normal to not have quite enough back trim when you start the flare so be aware of that . I Like the J 230. They are not a bad thing.   Nev

[JohnSim]

32 minutes ago, facthunter said:

No, Unless you are much too fast leave it till the wheels are about to touch. If you keep things the same. Power and attitude the plane will continue to do what it is already doing and you aren't watching Airspeed as you flare but there can be some windshear AND higher temps over the runway. Even with a highwing there is still ground effect which can help you in  critical situations where your speed is slow. Do not EVER land on the Nosewheel and if you aren't happy on the Approach, Go around with carb heat off. Check every time. Nev

Thanks Nev, that all makes sense.

[JohnSim]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

Hello everyone, I am back in the living.
I agree about the inertia comment.

1) what are your flapless approach / landings like in the 230 ? Tried that ? The extra speed will mean you are carrying a alot more inertia (and maybe give you a little more time) 

2) are your flares performed with the stall horn blaring ? In benign conditions, I would recommend that be a telltale of the right airspeed for a J230

 

Like most planes, you never want to let them get too slow. depending on the plane, you run out of a varied number of performance requirements (tail authority, elevator authority,  roll authority) 

I found when I first flew my 230, I wasnt letting it get slow enough in the flare, so I learned to fly is an inch above the deck - the feel and touch of just the right amount of back stick is quite tricky and very fine..... IE first few attempts resulted in balooning at low speed (bad) and resultant go arounds .
Jabs with winglets, especially high aspect wings like the 230 and the 170, the induced drag increases very little as the wing gets slow. as a result, the wing tends to just fly and fly until suddenly it doesnt. compared to my PA28 wing that the wing gets mushier and mushier but there isnt any sudden death a few inches off the ground like the jab.  Glen.

Thanks for that. I have been told by some people that they land the J230 with zero flap or half flap. However, most people have told me to use some power during the flare.

[facthunter]

More  speed more floating ,shallower approach. Flaps are put there for Landing.   Gives better view over the Nose. Slippery planes need flaps more.  It's 120 Kts Cruise. Nev

[RFguy]

I would only fly flapless with a high crosswind to deal with.  I suggested it because it might make the transition to flying the 230 easier.

 

if you have power on in normal landing configuration in the flare it will not stop flying.  (unless it is overweight) ....I think that's bad advice...

 

 are your flares performed with the stall horn blaring ?  if not, then you're not going slow enough to flare decisively  in the normal landing configuration ( flaps) . it will likely just balloon. Or, you'll use up twice the runway . Done right, ( I think) the stall horn is screaming its head off  with quite a steep nose up flare, inches above the ground. 

 

OH AND DO CHECK THE STALL HORN IS WORKING !

Be also aware- the 230 is quite nose heavy with not much in it.  put a bag of concretein the very back maybe to again ease the transition. however, that shouldnt need to be there when you are proficient.

Edited August 23 by RFguy

[JohnSim]

Thanks for all your advice and help guys.