Fuel Price

[facthunter]

Topic is fuel price, guys. Just a reminder. Nev

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, BrendAn said:

Everyone I know that works on them does a 600 gearbox inspection. It must be in a manual somewhere otherwise they would not do it.

Only if running on 30%+ AvGas or real old 912's without overload/clutch (I understand the slip clutch has been a standard fit for many years)..

 

My last 912ULS was still testing okay at 950 hrs - never had a Gbox inspection😈

[Moneybox]

I can only get 91 in town if the unreliable 98 bowser is down. I asked my L2 about it, he said "That's all I ever run, you'll never know the difference".

[facthunter]

I'd like to know it had no ethanol in it.  Also Octane for Mogas is not directly convertible to Avgas. Avgas besides being more reliable as to content  quality, has better anti knock performance for the same number. Avgas has 2 numbers Like LL100/110. Lean/rich. Nev

[BurnieM]

I believe legally non ethanol fuels are allowed to have up to 1% ethanol to allow for ethanol previously transported in the same tanker.

 

[Thruster88]

Is it true that ethanol will absorb small amounts of water that may be in the bottom of fuel tanks or gascolators that don't have drains and allow it to pass with out harm through the carburetor? 

 

Yes I have seen gascolators that don't have drains.

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, Moneybox said:

I can only get 91 in town if the unreliable 98 bowser is down. I asked my L2 about it, he said "That's all I ever run, you'll never know the difference".

As I mentioned, Rotax allow for a  the 80hp to be operated on 90 RON, however further reading indicates, to me, that using such low RON fuel brings with it "knock" risks, that need to be understood & managed.

Using higher RON fuel, reduces the risk.

I am not familiar with the 80 hp, however am aware that, in the 100hp, using 98 RON would seem to near eliminate the risk of "knock" . Check out the Operators Manual Page 5-8

5.1.1) Power setting
 

Sorry cant seem to copy the attached graph.

 

You might also like to look up Rotax Service Bulletin (SB) SB-912-079 R1 (same graph appears in this publication)

 

Additional thought; I understand that higher RON fuels allow for better altitude performance. What this might mean for a Rotax 912 being operated below 10,000ft is not entirely clear to me.

 

LAME's, L2's,  well meaning friend, Forum advisors (me) -

Always listen to their advise BUT they are human, just like the rest of us.

They can be reluctant to give up cherished beliefs (myths) and make errors.

Can be unduly attached to the maintenance/operating doctrine of one engine type (LYCon?) that is then applied to another (Rotax?) without real understanding of the differences.

As PIC/maintainer its your responsibility to decide how to look after (fuel type) your aircraft.

Treat all advise with scepticism - apply your own experince /logic and if all else fails, follow the Rotax advise, as writen in various Manuals & SB,s

😈

[Thruster88]

Another aspect of these wars is Fertilizer, somewhat boring if you are not a farmer, however we all have to eat. Nitrogen is produced in the Persian Gulf from natural gas, Russia is also a major exporter. Prices have risen at a greater rate than petrol, diesel since the n & t war started. As a farmer it has me thinking, will very high input costs reduce production/ yield of crops. Suppy and demand is well balanced atm, we are going for it. Much like oil a small reduction in production will increase price. A small increase in the price of wheat results in the price of bread going up by a much greater amount. There is currently about 30 aussie cents worth of wheat in a 680g loaf.

[Bernie]

Fuel on K'gari is $4.25 ...

Bernie.

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, Bernie said:

Fuel on K'gari is $4.25 ...

Bernie.

Where is that

[FlyBoy1960]

22 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Moneybox

 

"I’m running the 80hp Rotax on 91 for a considerable saving."

 

FYI:  https://www.flyrotax.com/p/service/technical-documentation

 

Chapter 5 is probably your best data

 

Rotax 912UL (80hp/lower compression ratio, than the 912ULS/100hp ) can use as low as 90 RON, however it seems to me that Rotax are advising (in the above Operators Manual) using 98 RON & allow 95 RON with extra caution by the pilot. 

 

AvGas can also be used however above 30% (from unreliable memory) the service interval is halved (50hrs rather than 100hrs) and the gearbox inspection goes down from 1000hrs to 600 hrs, due to lead fouling.

 

😈

there are lots of differences in the fuel numbers in the way they are measured around the world and many people get confused

 

1. RON (Research Octane Number)

• Mild test conditions
• Higher number

2. MON (Motor Octane Number)

• More severe test (high speed, load, temperature)
• Always lower than RON

3. AKI (Anti-Knock Index) — used in the USA

• This is the average:

  AKI=RON+MON2AKI = \frac{RON + MON}{2}AKI=2RON+MON
• That’s why US fuel numbers look lower:
  • US 87 ≈ Australia 91 RON
  • US 91 ≈ Australia 95–98 RON
    
    this means when you look at a number in the manual you need to make very sure whether they are talking US numbers or Australian numbers!    not being able to work this out properly could mean that you are using a lower fuel grade than your engine manufacturer stipulates

[FlyBoy1960]

41 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

Where is that

it's what 99.999999% of Australia knows as "Fraser Island"  before we became politically correct

[BrendAn]

Just now, FlyBoy1960 said:

it's what 99.999999% of Australia knows as "Fraser Island"  before we became politically correct

Yes. I just wanted to hear the correct name😁

[skippydiesel]

FlyBoy1960

 

All good information. 

 

As far as I know Rotax use RON, in all its recommendations.

Australia uses RON to describe its vehicle petrol types.

So there should be no confusion when deciding what fuel to use, when in Au.

 

😈

[Bernie]

21 hours ago, BrendAn said:

Where is that

 Previously Frazer Island..

[Kiwi]

Topped up my Hilux yesterday morning. 

 

Fill up my Cherokee this morning. 

I never would have believed that Avgas would be cheaper than Diesel. 

[jetboy]

Avgas in NZ $4.80 last week I cant find a Jet A price

Transport fuels similar at peak

https://www.fuelclock.nz/

 

[kgwilson]

The World Fuel avgas tank at South Grafton ran dry last week and is still empty. No word on when it is being replenished. Price at the time was $2.61 a litre. While we all whinge about the price hikes and especially because they happen on existing stock plus numerous tankers full already on their way here, the largest problem has been increased demand.

 

Why? There has been no change in the weather or distance travelled or more vehicles on the road suddenly, it is pure and simple panic buying and greed. People especially in regional areas filling multiple 200 litre drums on a trailer or ute or even large tanks. Motorists filling their tanks to full when they normally wouldn't and filling jerry cans that normally sat at home part empty. Bunnings ran out of jerry cans & probably other  retailers like Super Cheap etc. Just like toilet paper during Covid. Why? All this has contributed to the petrol and diesel retailers hiking the price. It is the normal economic model of supply and demand.

 

I am sitting here with my Electric car charged for free from my solar panels and home battery so I may appear a bit smug but my wifes car runs on petrol and  she didn't tear off to the petrol station to fill up. That will happen when the gauge gets to less than a quarter as normal.

 

Also Australia has cheaper fuel than all European countries, the UK, NZ  & most developed countries except the USA which is now about $US1.15 ($AUD 1.67) a litre. Our fuel excise tax is also lower than most developed countries.

 

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/USA/gasoline_prices/

 

 

[BurnieM]

2 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

The World Fuel avgas tank at South Grafton ran dry last week and is still empty. No word on when it is being replenished. Price at the time was $2.61 a litre. While we all whinge about the price hikes and especially because they happen on existing stock plus numerous tankers full already on their way here, the largest problem has been increased demand.

 

Why? There has been no change in the weather or distance travelled or more vehicles on the road suddenly, it is pure and simple panic buying and greed. People especially in regional areas filling multiple 200 litre drums on a trailer or ute or even large tanks. Motorists filling their tanks to full when they normally wouldn't and filling jerry cans that normally sat at home part empty. Bunnings ran out of jerry cans & probably other  retailers like Super Cheap etc. Just like toilet paper during Covid. Why? All this has contributed to the petrol and diesel retailers hiking the price. It is the normal economic model of supply and demand.

Yes, it does appear that consumption has increased by 50-60 %.

 

I do not believe this is the major reason profiteering by fuel distributors has increased. If you want to talk about greed this is it.

 

I do not believe this is personal greed.

Yes, there is a little panic here but mainly I see a lack of trust in government to manage the situation.

Being significantly below the recommended onshore reserve of 90 days does not help.  

Making wishy washy non transparent statements does not help.

Appearing to have no plan does not help. 

 

We have been here before.

This lack of trust needed to be worked on in 2022 but it was ignored just like 20 years plus of ignoring adequate onshore fuel reserves.

 

[Reynard]

The consumption of Avgas shouldn’t have changed over the past month, but a number of airfields have now run out.  This points to major supply chain issues not demand, but the price has still gone up dramatically.

[onetrack]

The Govt did exactly nothing to help us in the 1980-81 fuel crisis (which was worse than this one), so don't expect politicians or the Govt to help in this fuel crisis.

 

As the old saying goes, you wouldn't let politicians start a lolly shop outside a girls school, they'd send it broke in 5 mins with mismanagement.

 

Edited 22 hours ago by onetrack

[facthunter]

There has always been a lot of uncertainty with avgas supply I doubt you can even get the Higher octane varieties. Nev

[Moneybox]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

The World Fuel avgas tank at South Grafton ran dry last week and is still empty. No word on when it is being replenished. Price at the time was $2.61 a litre. While we all whinge about the price hikes and especially because they happen on existing stock plus numerous tankers full already on their way here, the largest problem has been increased demand.

 

Why? There has been no change in the weather or distance travelled or more vehicles on the road suddenly, it is pure and simple panic buying and greed. People especially in regional areas filling multiple 200 litre drums on a trailer or ute or even large tanks. Motorists filling their tanks to full when they normally wouldn't and filling jerry cans that normally sat at home part empty. Bunnings ran out of jerry cans & probably other  retailers like Super Cheap etc. Just like toilet paper during Covid. Why? All this has contributed to the petrol and diesel retailers hiking the price. It is the normal economic model of supply and demand.

 

I am sitting here with my Electric car charged for free from my solar panels and home battery so I may appear a bit smug but my wifes car runs on petrol and  she didn't tear off to the petrol station to fill up. That will happen when the gauge gets to less than a quarter as normal.

 

Also Australia has cheaper fuel than all European countries, the UK, NZ  & most developed countries except the USA which is now about $US1.15 ($AUD 1.67) a litre. Our fuel excise tax is also lower than most developed countries.

 

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/USA/gasoline_prices/

 

 

Filling a vehicle when supply is limited is perhaps more self preservation than greed. If you are going to need fuel and the message the price is going up and the supply is diminishing then surely it's wise to keep the tank full. I doubt there is a high percentage of people filling 44 gallon drums. It can't quite be compared to the stupidity of stacking up on toilet paper when there's no mention of a gastro epidemic. If there was greed involved it was from the suppliers jacking up prices on stocks of product purchased at lower prices.

 

Jumping in your electric car may seem a little smug because in reality most doing this are still in debt for the cost of installation on those solar panels and batteries. The electric power supply has not come for free.

[facthunter]

Why call it smug?  You buy an electric car because you think it's the Best choice. When fuel is in short supply or expensive, that reinforces the suitability of your choice. Don't worry. Sales of EV''s will receive a shot in the Arm from this oil blockage. at Hormuz. Nev

[onetrack]

Buying an EV has to be a simple economic and practical decision. In the case of a massive fuel shortage, as well as prices going ballistic, an EV makes sense for the long term. They will come out in front, over the next few years.

 

We have installed solar panels twice. First in 2011 - the cost to us for 1.6Kw in panels was $4000 and the Govt subsidised another $4000 to cover the $8000 installation cost. We recovered our outlay in 3.5 years.

After 10 years, we upgraded. We pulled out the 1.6Kw setup and installed a 6.8Kw setup, the largest allowable that can be connected to the grid. It cost us $3800 and there was no Govt subsidy, the solar panels had got much cheaper in the intervening 10 years.

 

We recovered our solar outlay within less than 4 years again, and we now enjoy a power bill that's less than $80 a month, even using 3 A/C's in the house. We don't skimp on power use, but we do make sure we have all the power-consuming items on during the day, when the solar system is producing lots of power. If we sell the power to the grid, we get bugger-all per Kw for most of the day - except for after 3:00PM, when we get 10c Kw for solar power generated.