Solo student pilot in Cessna crash at Parafield walks away. 05/01/26

[skippydiesel]

1 minute ago, BrendAn said:

i learn't today that rotax do make airboxs, i always thought that sort of stuff was made to suit .

You are not entirely wrong - many airboxes are made by the aircraft factory, as are mufflers and engine mounting systems, however Rotax make all of these items as well. 😈

 

[facthunter]

Anyhow you are Losing POWER and May have other Problems IF you heat it all the time. I must have EXPLAINED  THAT at Least 4 times. Its Pretty basic stuff.. I don't CARE who made the airbox It's irrelevant,  It's a bad idea. to have HOT air all the time .  Cars etc run better in cool air as it's MORE dense.  Nev

Edited Sunday at 06:34 AM by facthunter

[Moneybox]

1 minute ago, skippydiesel said:

You are not entirely wrong - many airboxes are made by the aircraft factory, as are mufflers and engine mounting systems, however Rotax make all of these items as well. 😈

 

You can bet these components are made to a predetermined Rotax specification or at least approved by Rotax.

[Moneybox]

2 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Anyhow you are Losing POWER and May have other Problems IF you heat it all the time. I must have EXPLAINED  THAT at Least 4 times. Its Pretty basic stuff.. I don't CARE who made the airbox It's irrelevant, It's a bad idea.   Nev

Nev, it's not new. If you look back a few years at automotive engines running carburettors, later versions used water heated manifolds due to the problem created by evaporation of the fuel causing cooling.

[skippydiesel]

11 minutes ago, Moneybox said:

You can bet these components are made to a predetermined Rotax specification or at least approved by Rotax.

I cant be certain but I think you are incorrect.

Rotax will supply a basic 912 ULS engine, for which you can including exhaust , air inlet/management , remote oil tank, coolant & oil heat exchangers at a price($$$$?). What you or the factory do with the component's is the choice of the purchaser.

Rotax do not supply, for the 912 carburettor engines, fuel reticulation components other than the fuel distribution manifold .

Factory's often opt for locally or inhouse, made  components - oil/coolant heat exchangers, custom exhaust system & engine mounts, probably due to cost savings and possibly cowling dimensions.

I have seen some really weird looking exhaust systems, that are unlikly to follow Rotax standard's.

The exhaust system on your Evector being a case in point.

😈

Edited Sunday at 06:50 AM by skippydiesel

[facthunter]

I'm eFing wasting my time. You haven't listened to a word, Getting away with it doesn't mean it's the Best . There are Laid down figures to Meet, Turbo'd and Injected Models should be OK and there's Plenty of Heat/ Vaporisation issues with that fuel system and carb type/Location already. Nev

[BrendAn]

24 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I'm eFing wasting my time. You haven't listened to a word, Getting away with it doesn't mean it's the Best . There are Laid down figures to Meet, Turbo'd and Injected Models should be OK and there's Plenty of Heat/ Vaporisation issues with that fuel system and carb type/Location already. Nev

there are a lot of cowled 912s running cone air filters straight on the carbs with no issues at all.  

 

i don't think anyone is saying your wrong but  all the engines out there having no issues makes it hard to argue.

 

Edited Sunday at 07:08 AM by BrendAn

[facthunter]

You haven't taken aboard all the Points I Made either. It's Less efficient and Harder on the engine. You go for efficiency in other areas. Why NOT this one? Is it Because I Brought it up?  Nev

[Moneybox]

20 minutes ago, facthunter said:

You haven't taken aboard all the Points I Made either. It's Less efficient and Harder on the engine. You go for efficiency in other areas. Why NOT this one? Is it Because I Brought it up?  Nev

Nev I think most would understand that cool air is more dense therefore you can squeeze more into a confined space but we're talking about carburettor icing, something that Rotax seem to have less of a problem with than other engines in similar service. It has nothing to do with the fact that you brought it up even if you did appear a little rude in the manner you did so.

 

What I'm suggesting is that Rotax may be utilising available heat to help prevent carburettor icing. If heat transfer from the airbox is the answer you'd get less heat at higher revs due to the more rapid airflow. Therefore performance at higher engine speed would be less affected. Once you reduce throttle and therefore airflow through the airbox incoming air temperature would rise effectively combatting carburettor icing.

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

You haven't taken aboard all the Points I Made either. It's Less efficient and Harder on the engine. You go for efficiency in other areas. Why NOT this one? Is it Because I Brought it up?  Nev

It doesn't effect me. I don't have a 912 but I do know people that run them  like that with no issues.

But maybe there cowls get lots of airflow so temp is not much more than ambient.

[facthunter]

Moneybox, Don't Worry Mate.  I think WE are Just different. I'm a Bit fanatical about how engines are running and cared for. AS an example I  would not have driven your van across the Nullabor without changing the Oils  and filter in case the sludge got stirred up, as can happen and wreck the Motor . Vans are often driven by anyone who generally doesn't give a stuff about them and My Mechanic mates tell of Operators WHO  don't Service Vehicles, Councils, Taxi owners Vans etc to save Money

 . ALSO some fool mucking around with the Airbox Of a Plane I flew made it use 23 Litres/hr instead of the Usual 16 Liters which it had Previously operated at. I thought it had developed a Fuel Leak. I'm just Not as trusting as you are from experience in engine recondition and seeing the effect of neglect  and Bad work and design on  things and also on Planes Putting MY life at risk. Some Participants Have a rather cavalier Attitude to Maintenance and I don't Like it. Maybe that's why I've NEVER Hurt anyone or Damaged a Plane. "She'll Be right" Is NOT ME. Never will Be.  It's an aeroplane  Not a Game. and I've had plenty of associates kill them selves or get  seriously injured Predictably. Nev

Edited Sunday at 08:31 AM by facthunter

[onetrack]

2 hours ago, Moneybox said:

Nev, it's not new. If you look back a few years at automotive engines running carburettors, later versions used water heated manifolds due to the problem created by evaporation of the fuel causing cooling.

The reason Holden used a water heated intake manifold on the red motors was to produce smoother cold weather idling and running, and better fuel atomisation. The warm manifold prevented liquid petrol from pooling in the intake manifold below the carburettor.

 

Edited Sunday at 08:50 AM by onetrack

[Moneybox]

No doubt we're polar opposites. I'm a little casual however I operate on prior knowledge. I didn't spend a lifetime in mechanical engineering without picking up a few clues along the way. As I said before heading to Melbourne "If it starts and runs without overheating it'll make it across the Nullarbor". That doesn't mean I don't take care, I just know what I'm doing in most situations. If the vehicle was to hiccup along the way I have what it takes to sort it out so I take on things that some may find risky, for me it's a calculated risk.

 

I'm yet to learn aviation and I'm quite aware that I'm in the high risk category where the casual approach can bring somebody to an untimely end however I've passed the last 72 years without a vehicle accident (non-competition) or serious injury so I think I have a fair chance of getting it sorted.

[danny_galaga]

On 10/01/2026 at 2:49 PM, skippydiesel said:

"Yes. 912 with carbs on top are. Pretty immune to ice unless they have a ducted carb inlet."

 

I would not go so far as to use the " immune" word - perhaps resistant.

 

My last 912ULS/Zephyr, with individual air filters, under cowl temp, ran a consistent 10C above ambient. In 10+ years of ownership and may 100's of hours, never a suggestion of catby ice.

 

My 912ILS/Sonex has an air box, with direct access to outside air. Under cowl also runs 10C above ambient. However the carby inlets are fitted with Cozycarb coolant heated rings, claimed to prevent carby ice.

 

😈

Mine have a similar heater. A bit more hose, but I've decided it's worth it. I like that it virtually imparts no heat to the inlet air, it just keeps the surfaces warmer, which is where the ice sticks after all 😇 

[facthunter]

Pure Magic is it? A BELIEF A Religion?. It works till it doesn't. The Gazelle has a Heat Knob. Maybe it's just for Pretending. Anyhow I ALWAYS insisted the student made sure it was FULLY cold at the same time the throttle was fully open every Time. Leaving carb Heat ON WILL significantly Reduce POWER but It's needed to ensure EFFECTIVE results. Proper Application is Before reducing Power on Descent and DON'T DO long descents without Power. Normal stuff, Don't forget you can get Carb ice in  30 + degree Ambient air. The carb works Like a refrigerator. Rapid atomisation of a liquid and the Air expands adiabatically. and cools. Physics that Cannot be wished away.  The heated Manifold in the cars was for Idling in traffic and Pollution. Same reason you were fitting TOO Hot plugs to Many Cars. None of this CAR thing HAS anything to do with Aeroplanes. It's just Muddying the Waters.  Nev

[facthunter]

I'm NOT Interested in a pissing competition with you, Moneybox. I believe PREVENTION  is Better than Calamity. Long  fast hot trips can dislodge sludge and cause filter By Pass. I don't believe in the Casual approach particularly with  Aircraft. It's Not some thing I would Encourage. You can Be JOE COOL and I'll be Check Everything Nev. OK?

[turboplanner]

20 hours ago, BrendAn said:

there are a lot of cowled 912s running cone air filters straight on the carbs with no issues at all.  

 

i don't think anyone is saying your wrong but  all the engines out there having no issues makes it hard to argue.

 

Just a little comment about cone air filters; the flame height from a backfire is a steady 2 metres high in still air. I've seen one go up.

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Just a little comment about cone air filters; the flame height from a backfire is a steady 2 metres high in still air. I've seen one go up.

Cone air filters are used a lot on Rotax . They would be spark arrestors as well. 

If your aeroplane is shooting out 2 mt flames you might want to do a tune up😁

[facthunter]

They only keep out Grasshoppers, washers and spanners. You can see through them. Flame traps would be Metallic.  Nev

Edited Monday at 03:30 AM by facthunter

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

They only keep out Grasshoppers, washers and spanners.  Nev

Lucky they are in a clean environment .would you prefer a Donaldson cyclone hanging off the side.🤣

Edited Monday at 03:30 AM by BrendAn

[facthunter]

How can you guarantee that? Quite good Air cleaners are Made for Aircraft but Many use Practically Nothing. Sand Storms will stuff Most aero engines. Depends where you Operate. Nev

[BrendAn]

6 minutes ago, facthunter said:

They only keep out Grasshoppers, washers and spanners. You can see through them. Flame traps would be Metallic.  Nev

You do realise they have layers of cotton between the mesh outer layers. 

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

How can you guarantee that? Quite good Air cleaners are Made for Aircraft but Many use Practically Nothing. Sand Storms will stuff Most aero engines. Depends where you Operate. Nev

 K&n filters are good quality as far as I know.

[facthunter]

The suitability is in the design. Depends on what Purpose it's designed for. Not Necessarily the Brand Name. Nev

[turboplanner]

46 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

Cone air filters are used a lot on Rotax . They would be spark arrestors as well. 

If your aeroplane is shooting out 2 mt flames you might want to do a tune up😁

No they are not spark arrestors.

Anyone can induce a backfire;  if this happens on the ground you could lose your aircraft; if this happens in the air you could lose your life.

I gave you first hand evidence of a flame, a steady flame where a fire truck had to snuff out the steady flame.

There are air intake filters and air intake filters, and intake filters that are going to be sitting in an engine bay.  The designer needs to select the safe filter and safe installation.