Hi All, Newbie seeking help with Skyfox Gazelle

[Blueadventures]

2 hours ago, AWC said:

Thanks for your help. I’m not a scammer, for sure. I’m maintenance from Pattaya Atlantic airport. The owner brought it in here. I didn’t ask where it was purchased from. But what they have is the AMM for the CA-22N Tricycle, which cannot be used as supporting documentation for registration. That’s why I need to find the AMM for the CA-22 Tailwheel version to use as part of the registration documentation. Do you happen to have the AMM for the CA-22 Tailwheel?

Try contacting Rob Stowe at Coastal Aviation on Sunshine Coast Queensland Australia he makes part for the Skyfoxs

[Neil Denmark]

Thanks for the photo and back story! I do not have any manuals for the tail dragger version but I have asked a friend who has. I will let you know if I have any luck

[AWC]

Thank you very much. I truly appreciate your help. I honestly don’t know where else to turn.

[phonetic]

After the approved Skyfox Gazelle CA25N aileron hangar repair process bit of plywood cracked at bolt after wing swing mishap, I understand there is a approved fix using metal and epoxy giving as a suggestion of someones fix approved by RAAus 

[Neil Denmark]

Hi there

Bugger! My Gazelle had a similar "wing swing" mishap by the previous owner. They were able to make an "approved" repair 3 or 4 hangers with aluminum to replace the plywood. I have all the drawings etc somewhere which I will dig out and send send to you. Best if you have an email address? Not a nice job I am told...

Maybe the guy who did the repair will get in touch with you??? I know he is on this forum.

[BrendAn]

gazelles are certified. i think only an l4 would be allowed to do the repair. 

i heard its an expensive job to get the alloy hangers fitted.

[phonetic]

1 hour ago, Neil Denmark said:

Hi there

Bugger! My Gazelle had a similar "wing swing" mishap by the previous owner. They were able to make an "approved" repair 3 or 4 hangers with aluminum to replace the plywood. I have all the drawings etc somewhere which I will dig out and send send to you. Best if you have an email address? Not a nice job I am told...

Maybe the guy who did the repair will get in touch with you??? I know he is on this forum.

1cm2 of metal to wood epoxy bonding has 10kg shear strengh breaking point 30-40lg cm2 allowing both sides thats 16cm2 at least at a guess we north of 160kgs rating or 700kgs shear breaking force, my L2 recons its fine, stronger than the parent material with the bolt offer a 2nd point of fail safe he recons deprnding on the RAAus person ansewring the call will approve it or not, certified to CAA JAR EASA rules  actually VH rego a historical thing even Volksplane back in the day were VH reg, not the same regulations as a C172 or PA28 for example, I doubt its only a GA LAME scope  

[phonetic]

2 hours ago, Neil Denmark said:

Hi there

Bugger! My Gazelle had a similar "wing swing" mishap by the previous owner. They were able to make an "approved" repair 3 or 4 hangers with aluminum to replace the plywood. I have all the drawings etc somewhere which I will dig out and send send to you. Best if you have an email address? Not a nice job I am told...

Maybe the guy who did the repair will get in touch with you??? I know he is on this forum.

sent you a message with my email addy cheers frank 

[facthunter]

There's Plastic stuff each side holding the Aileron Mechanism that goes hard too. Wing folding has it's problems. These planes are getting old. Nev

[BrendAn]

https://services.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/under/ca25/CA25-001.pdf

 What happens when you reach 4000 airframe hours. Do they extend the life after an inspection?

[Thruster88]

3 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

https://services.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/under/ca25/CA25-001.pdf

 What happens when you reach 4000 airframe hours. Do they extend the life after an inspection?

That AD is pretty clear, those items HAVE to be replaced at those hours.

[facthunter]

That's 30 years ago Nev.

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

That's 30 years ago Nev.

yes but wouldn't it still apply. even more so now.

[Thruster88]

2 minutes ago, facthunter said:

That's 30 years ago Nev.

Airworthiness Directives, AD's,  never die, sometimes they are amended or cancelled. Cancellation usually only occurs if it reasonable that all applicable  aircraft will have had the AD applied. In this case because the AD only applies to high time aircraft it will be forever. 

[facthunter]

My Point was they are NOW 30 years older and they don't improve with age. Nev

[T510]

22 hours ago, BrendAn said:

gazelles are certified. i think only an l4 would be allowed to do the repair. 

i heard its an expensive job to get the alloy hangers fitted.

I was told that it needed a L2 or L4 to complete the job when I enquired with RAAus about a 55 reg Skyfox I was looking at that needed the aileron hangers replaced.

 

The tech team also made it clear that if the repair was done by a L1 or unqualified person they would cancel the registration. RAAUs do have an approved repair method but as I am a L1 they wouldn't share it with me.

 

It is considered a major repair, given the Skyfox that crashed in the NT reportedly had the aileron detach in flight I am not surprised.

 

 

 

[T510]

19 hours ago, BrendAn said:

https://services.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/under/ca25/CA25-001.pdf

 What happens when you reach 4000 airframe hours. Do they extend the life after an inspection?

A couple of people I know with Skyfoxs have either spare wings or spare spars for when/if they reach the 4000hr mark.

 

As far as they are aware there is no ability to extend the life on the spars

[facthunter]

They have a very low Vne with any G force on. The wing fails in Forward twist. Nev

[T510]

22 hours ago, phonetic said:

1cm2 of metal to wood epoxy bonding has 10kg shear strengh breaking point 30-40lg cm2 allowing both sides thats 16cm2 at least at a guess we north of 160kgs rating or 700kgs shear breaking force, my L2 recons its fine, stronger than the parent material with the bolt offer a 2nd point of fail safe he recons deprnding on the RAAus person ansewring the call will approve it or not, certified to CAA JAR EASA rules  actually VH rego a historical thing even Volksplane back in the day were VH reg, not the same regulations as a C172 or PA28 for example, I doubt its only a GA LAME scope  

Don't rely on an answer on the phone or CAA/JAR/EASE rules. Get it in writing. Otherwise it's your word against theirs.

 

If RAAus are aware your plane needs the repairs make sure it is done by an approved person and in accordance with their approved repair method. 

 

Your plane could end up with the rego cancelled and requiring the repairs redone. I am having to jump through lots of hoops at the moment with a plane I have bought because it's history is incomplete and a previous owner did work he was not authorised to do

[phonetic]

4 minutes ago, T510 said:

Don't rely on an answer on the phone or CAA/JAR/EASE rules. Get it in writing. Otherwise it's your word against theirs.

 

If RAAus are aware your plane needs the repairs make sure it is done by an approved person and in accordance with their approved repair method. 

 

Your plane could end up with the rego cancelled and requiring the repairs redone. I am having to jump through lots of hoops at the moment with a plane I have bought because it's history is incomplete and a previous owner did work he was not authorised to do

RAAus Tech manual says:

7.1.5 REPAIRS TO FACTORY BUILT AIRCRAFT - NON LSA (excluding Group G Lightweight aeroplanes)
CAO 95.32 & CAO 95.55
Repairs to privately operated aircraft, excluding Group G Lightweight aeroplanes may be conducted by the holder
of a Level One Maintenance Authority (or higher), using firstly, the manufacturer or designer’s repair procedures,
or secondarily, in accordance with repair methods and techniques detailed in FAA AC43.13-1B.

Repairs to aircraft used for hire and/or flying training must be undertaken by a person holding an RAAus Level Two
or higher Maintenance Authority, using firstly, the aircraft manufacturer or designer’s repair procedures, or
secondarily, in accordance with repair methods and techniques detailed in FAA AC43.13-1B.

 

So as its not for flight training hire or reward, only for private use ie me I can do the repairs using and apprived method, apprently it exists but the person who wrote the instruction did not post it online and has since decesed, im going with FAA AC43.13-1B "plywood lap patch repair method using expoxy bonding"

[phonetic]

48 minutes ago, T510 said:

I was told that it needed a L2 or L4 to complete the job when I enquired with RAAus about a 55 reg Skyfox I was looking at that needed the aileron hangers replaced.

 

The tech team also made it clear that if the repair was done by a L1 or unqualified person they would cancel the registration. RAAUs do have an approved repair method but as I am a L1 they wouldn't share it with me.

 

It is considered a major repair, given the Skyfox that crashed in the NT reportedly had the aileron detach in flight I am not surprised.

 

 

 

Yep RAAus getting sued in recent times wants another party have the legal liability it seems, looks like  I will track down the document make the bits give it to my L2 he dose the work, hint factory24  rego aircraft are pointless for owner L1 maintained, the RAAus tech manual is not correct it seems a "major structure" can according to RAAus vary on the day, its going to cost me min $1k for something for a 19 reg variant say a kitfox would gost me $50 for the 2 part epoxy, alloy sheet,  bolt washer nylock nut.

[T510]

The RAAus rules we have to operate under are not perfect but they are what we are stuck with.

 

I understand your frustration, as I said earlier, get any correspondence in writing, maybe you can try to get RAAus to give you permission to do the repair, you may even manage to convince them it is a minor repair. If you can't I would strongly advise against proceeding unless you have a L2/L4 who will sign off on your work. You may end up with a plane you can't legally fly.

 

I would be requesting the repair document from RAAus, or get your L2 to request it. They should supply it to him/her.

 

Also as much as you won't use the plane for training/hire, do you plan on taking passengers? It opens another liability issue if you have done repairs without authorisation. 

 

I fully understand the limitations imposed by the tech manual. It is why I won't buy a factory built/certified aircraft. I went through similar to you when I was looking at the Skyfox I was considering buying. RAAus were aware of the aircraft and made it clear that as a L1 I could not conduct the repairs myself. 

 

That's why my RAAus aircraft are home built and my other aircraft is VH experimental and will not be getting transferred to Group G.

 

 

If you can get the repairs done for $1k I would be jumping on it before whoever quoted you realises just how big a job it is. The maintainers I spoke to where talking 4 - 5 times that. Everyone I spoke to said it is a shit of a job and requires a lot more effort than you would expect. Apparently it can't be done without cutting the wing covering.

Edited 16 hours ago by T510

[phonetic]

55 minutes ago, T510 said:

The RAAus rules we have to operate under are not perfect but they are what we are stuck with.

 

I understand your frustration, as I said earlier, get any correspondence in writing, maybe you can try to get RAAus to give you permission to do the repair, you may even manage to convince them it is a minor repair. If you can't I would strongly advise against proceeding unless you have a L2/L4 who will sign off on your work. You may end up with a plane you can't legally fly.

 

I would be requesting the repair document from RAAus, or get your L2 to request it. They should supply it to him/her.

 

Also as much as you won't use the plane for training/hire, do you plan on taking passengers? It opens another liability issue if you have done repairs without authorisation. 

 

I fully understand the limitations imposed by the tech manual. It is why I won't buy a factory built/certified aircraft. I went through similar to you when I was looking at the Skyfox I was considering buying. RAAus were aware of the aircraft and made it clear that as a L1 I could not conduct the repairs myself. 

 

That's why my RAAus aircraft are home built and my other aircraft is VH experimental and will not be getting transferred to Group G.

 

 

If you can get the repairs done for $1k I would be jumping on it before whoever quoted you realises just how big a job it is. The maintainers I spoke to where talking 4 - 5 times that. Everyone I spoke to said it is a shit of a job and requires a lot more effort than you would expect. Apparently it can't be done without cutting the wing covering.

You ae not the 1st person saying that, 19 reg gives freedoms for DIY and sourcing data from builders forums.

The $1k was assuming the RAAus approved repair scheme is what the guy did all that years ago lap epoxy ie 2 bits of shaped metal epoxy bolt and L2 labour and sign off, I got the 6063T6 2mm alloy jigsaw drill ready to go.

So much for RAAus being the affordable option for single pilot Day VFR LOL   

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, T510 said:

The RAAus rules we have to operate under are not perfect but they are what we are stuck with.

 

I understand your frustration, as I said earlier, get any correspondence in writing, maybe you can try to get RAAus to give you permission to do the repair, you may even manage to convince them it is a minor repair. If you can't I would strongly advise against proceeding unless you have a L2/L4 who will sign off on your work. You may end up with a plane you can't legally fly.

 

I would be requesting the repair document from RAAus, or get your L2 to request it. They should supply it to him/her.

 

Also as much as you won't use the plane for training/hire, do you plan on taking passengers? It opens another liability issue if you have done repairs without authorisation. 

 

I fully understand the limitations imposed by the tech manual. It is why I won't buy a factory built/certified aircraft. I went through similar to you when I was looking at the Skyfox I was considering buying. RAAus were aware of the aircraft and made it clear that as a L1 I could not conduct the repairs myself. 

 

That's why my RAAus aircraft are home built and my other aircraft is VH experimental and will not be getting transferred to Group G.

 

 

If you can get the repairs done for $1k I would be jumping on it before whoever quoted you realises just how big a job it is. The maintainers I spoke to where talking 4 - 5 times that. Everyone I spoke to said it is a shit of a job and requires a lot more effort than you would expect. Apparently it can't be done without cutting the wing covering.

I know of one gazelle that has had the alloy hanger conversion and I am sure he said it cost $11000

Edited 14 hours ago by BrendAn

[phonetic]

Just now, BrendAn said:

I know of one gazelle that has had the alloy hanger conversion and I am sure he said it cost $11000

Wow thats insane.

im better taking a the risk pay $770 and submit Modification and Repair Approval Process MARAP proposal, saying  SINGLE 25mm of broken 7mm birch plywood can be repared with a lap patch using metal carbon fiber ect as the remaining hangers are pefectly sound.

Can use AI to ask what is the shear and peel rating of a lap patch using  metal epoxy plywood, maybe get a Enginering student to write up calculations.

I cant see a laser or CNC cut bit of metal costing beyond $500 ?? 

Or go to a sheetmetal frabricator locally, I supply the 6063T6 sheet.

here is the damage again is the aircraft is now a economic writeoff