X-Air Standard. Is it surviving the test of time?

[robinsm]

I have a photo from my aircraft showing raa sticker (as required) wiith 544kg as the legal weight. (from Raa-aus).  Jared needs to read the previous requirements and publish his reasons.   

[jackc]

36 minutes ago, robinsm said:

I have a photo from my aircraft showing raa sticker (as required) wiith 544kg as the legal weight. (from Raa-aus).  Jared needs to read the previous requirements and publish his reasons.   

Well, this change should have been published to all  X-Air owners? But it seems RAAus wait until someone does a Rego transfer, THEN the new owner gets the bad news? 
IF RAAus try and blame CASA, that won’t work?  Because IF RAAus try to blame  CASA for this, CASA would ask for an immediate AD? Notification go out to all owners ASAP? 
That has not happened?  
I would allege that  some ‘skirt’ in RAAus has decided to make changes for reasons best known to themselves? 
Anyway, I will make phone calls tomorrow, and see what happens 🤩

[FlyBoy1960]

51 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

The 450 is the British mtow. I don't know why they used that for some.

That is because the very first few X-Air aircraft were accepted on the British certification  BCAR Section S  which had a statutory limit of 450 kg. This was the same as the ultralight limit in Europe at the time. The factory used the platform extensively for banner towing and the aircraft was up sized to 490 kg for several years and then they made a change to the tubing in the trailing edge and the aircraft was upgraded again with the new tubing.  I flew my first one in 1998, I then purchased one in 2002/2003 and owned it for many years, truly regret selling.

 

Somewhere I have all of the certificates and documentation including RAA certificates approving the aircraft at the heavier weight.

With the 51% certificates I supplied earlier you are able to do your own modifications and adjustments because you are the one taking the responsibility for everything just like another author has shown the fuel tanks above. You can make these changes if you wish to a 19 category aircraft without any engineering orders and this includes raising the maximum takeoff weight should you choose. I do however have the RAA certificates for the aircraft to be flown at the higher weight somewhere on a hard drive

[FlyBoy1960]

This was the updated manual for my aircraft I received in 2007 from Vrata at X-Air.

 

Hope this helps someone

 

I have also added a screenshot of the French manual which again shows 490 kg

Manual- X-AIR-490kgs.pdf

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, robinsm said:

added a "camel hump" on the back of the existing fuel tanks...fibreglass with connecting holes to existing tank.   Went from 50lts to 94 lts...because COG is over the wheel centres the change to cog was minimal, still within spec.   Made the Aircraft a longer distance machine... eg..brakon hill from Goulburn...fuel at Griffith and Ivanhoe...   The pic shows the pass side, the pilots side had a similar extension.  Very important to use the right ester as one ius fuel safe and the other breaks down.   Cant remember which one I used but it lasted a number of years before I sold it and no sign of breakdown or trouble.

 

 

 

thanks for the photo. great idea.  i have read your old posts about flying to cameron corner . what a fantastic trip .

 

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

That is because the very first few X-Air aircraft were accepted on the British certification  BCAR Section S  which had a statutory limit of 450 kg. This was the same as the ultralight limit in Europe at the time. The factory used the platform extensively for banner towing and the aircraft was up sized to 490 kg for several years and then they made a change to the tubing in the trailing edge and the aircraft was upgraded again with the new tubing.  I flew my first one in 1998, I then purchased one in 2002/2003 and owned it for many years, truly regret selling.

 

Somewhere I have all of the certificates and documentation including RAA certificates approving the aircraft at the heavier weight.

With the 51% certificates I supplied earlier you are able to do your own modifications and adjustments because you are the one taking the responsibility for everything just like another author has shown the fuel tanks above. You can make these changes if you wish to a 19 category aircraft without any engineering orders and this includes raising the maximum takeoff weight should you choose. I do however have the RAA certificates for the aircraft to be flown at the higher weight somewhere on a hard drive

great info, thanks.   my first 2 xairs were 544 and the new one is 490,  thats because the builders of the first 2 put 544 on the papaerwork.

both those planes have been downgraded to 450 and 490 . 

i actually agree with raaus in a way, i don't think the builder of a kit should decide the mtow, it should come from the manufacturer.

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, robinsm said:

I have a photo from my aircraft showing raa sticker (as required) wiith 544kg as the legal weight. (from Raa-aus).  Jared needs to read the previous requirements and publish his reasons.   

had the same and had to remove it and put the new lower limit on.

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

Well, this change should have been published to all  X-Air owners? But it seems RAAus wait until someone does a Rego transfer, THEN the new owner gets the bad news? 
IF RAAus try and blame CASA, that won’t work?  Because IF RAAus try to blame  CASA for this, CASA would ask for an immediate AD? Notification go out to all owners ASAP? 
That has not happened?  
I would allege that  some ‘skirt’ in RAAus has decided to make changes for reasons best known to themselves? 
Anyway, I will make phone calls tomorrow, and see what happens 🤩

your xair may be a 450 kg , flyboy is saying the 490 has a thicker trailing edge.

did you still need a poh. i can get office works to copy mine , its no problem.

[jackc]

Just now, BrendAn said:

your xair may be a 450 kg , flyboy is saying the 490 has a thicker trailing edge.

did you still need a poh. i can get office works to copy mine , its no problem.

Thanks for the offer, Brendan. You could send it to me as a PDF if you like and I can get it printed out thank you very much.
Well, my machine has a serial number of 492, so I’m wondering where that fits in the scheme of things?

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, jackc said:

Thanks for the offer, Brendan. You could send it to me as a PDF if you like and I can get it printed out thank you very much.
Well, my machine has a serial number of 492, so I’m wondering where that fits in the scheme of things?

will get onto this week.   don't know anything about the serial numbers. mine are 537 and 892. dunno what the first one was.

i am a serial xair buyer, each time i sell one i need another one. great fun and cheap to own.

[jackc]

Well, I knew it was gonna happen. I got the dreaded email from.RAAus, asking for a W&B, their reasoning was the previous owner back in 2015 received a request to provide weight and balance, they don’t have that. The aircraft was registered in 1999 so it would appear records have been lost and they have no record of the original weight balance and since that time the records have been digitised  and the paper records no doubt shredded. So  on the phone I asked today why the W&B  They said I will need to provide that,  to get the registration transferred and I said well that’s interesting because CASA  has removed RAAus authority to do W&B checks so therefore there is no easy method of getting a W&B any more because RAAus have not put anything in place,  However it looks  I must go to CASA  authorised W&B person and pay them significant money to get the job done?

Next, I was asked about the colour of the skins, it had changed since initial initial registration because they were replaced in 2023.  So they want copy of logbook page detailing that as well. Then they asked when the nose wheel was changed? There was no pic of this?

I asked about MTOW increase to 490kg, they said to show factory evidence. So I have done that. 

It looks to me they have incomplete records?

So, when someone does a rego transfer, they go through everything with a fine tooth comb?

I told them at this time, not feasible to do W&B as it stands. 
So, I could well end up unregistered? 🤢

 

 

[BrendAn]

How bloody stupid can things get.

Try ringing Michael Coates and see if he can help. It's an xair standard for christ sake. Your sitting on the c of g and it's all pre-made tubes and Dacron. The only thing you can really do is move the battery fore or aft, even that is not much change.

[jackc]

They are so short sighted, they said the aircraft cannot be used for training, but obviously they have not looked me up to see my 24 reg Jabiru 230D.

Well, it looks like VH rego for this aircraft. SAAA have APs do do W&B for VH Experimental. 
I think a stack of Members should call a Special General Meeting, and ditch the hierarchy, and  start again? 

[Blueadventures]

35 minutes ago, jackc said:

They are so short sighted, they said the aircraft cannot be used for training, but obviously they have not looked me up to see my 24 reg Jabiru 230D.

Well, it looks like VH rego for this aircraft. SAAA have APs do do W&B for VH Experimental. 
I think a stack of Members should call a Special General Meeting, and ditch the hierarchy, and  start again? 

Just maybe tee up MB to do a w&b next time you fly over to your hangar then you will have it for SAAA or you could submit to RAAus and they will get it approved at no cost to file with your aircraft records.  Would have been great for you if previous owner had done this but at least the records are being corrected and completed.

[jackc]

2 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

Just maybe tee up MB to do a w&b next time you fly over to your hangar then you will have it for SAAA or you could submit to RAAus and they will get it approved at no cost to file with your aircraft records.  Would have been great for you if previous owner had done this but at least the records are being corrected and completed.

RAAus need to put in place a regime where W&B can be done on RAA registered aircraft by negotiation,  within independent parties to carry out the function.

And not to mention easy access to have it done , considering members are scattered all over Australia. 
Since there is no friendship between  SAAA and RAAus, I don’t see any collaboration occurring there,  in any way. 
Older history will dictate, that.

[FlyBoy1960]

Ask if a level 2 can do the W&B, why involve CASA in the W&B at all.  Try telling CASA you will do it but because they approve it you will then ask them to be responsible for your CofA seeing they have such a strong personal intrest in your plane !

[jackc]

14 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

Ask if a level 2 can do the W&B, why involve CASA in the W&B at all.  Try telling CASA you will do it but because they approve it you will then ask them to be responsible for your CofA seeing they have such a strong personal intrest in your plane !

It appears that CASA revoked RAAus people from doing W&B? Now only a CASA AP can do them? Unless someone knows different? 
However SAAA APs  sanctioned by CASA to do them, for VH Experimental aircraft owned by members,   I would simply pay SAAA to hire the scales, by way of deposit, which is returned when scales are sent back.

Part of the member benefit from SAAA, by going VH Experimental, away from RAAus? 

[Blueadventures]

28 minutes ago, jackc said:

RAAus need to put in place a regime where W&B can be done on RAA registered aircraft by negotiation,  within independent parties to carry out the function.

And not to mention easy access to have it done , considering members are scattered all over Australia. 
Since there is no friendship between  SAAA and RAAus, I don’t see any collaboration occurring there,  in any way. 
Older history will dictate, that.

They (RAAus) are still awaiting CASA approval of their W&B training (Maybe slowness or unreasonableness on CASA's part.)

I have in the past held W&B with RAAus and not current since CASA has suspended the approval process of RAAus training for some reason; I also well before had W&B with GFA (Of note is that gliders undergo a survey inspection and w&b every ten years.)

 

I'm sure that a documented w&b by an SAAA approved person using certified scales can be considered as a w&b after review by a CASA approved person engaged by RAAus (Usually no cost to you).

[jackc]

Well, I would have thought by  CASA pulling RAAus W&B authority, it leaves a segment of Aviation unable to comply with regulations?

I wonder IF CASA have poo po’d  RAAus training manual to gain CASA approval? 
Someone is in neglect here, in fixing this problem? 
I have a solution, change to VH Experimental, fix W&B problem, do RPL with an independant operator under CASA Part 149, NO flying school needed, do Class 5 Medical and fly away happy 😃 

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

It appears that CASA revoked RAAus people from doing W&B? Now only a CASA AP can do them? Unless someone knows different? 
However SAAA APs  sanctioned by CASA to do them, for VH Experimental aircraft owned by members,   I would simply pay SAAA to hire the scales, by way of deposit, which is returned when scales are sent back.

Part of the member benefit from SAAA, by going VH Experimental, away from RAAus? 

I am happy enough with raaus, even with its quirks. You only need to deal with the frustration at transfer time.

No drama normally.  Don't agree with that silly w&b request though.

But as blue said, if your mate can do one for you it might save some headache.

Have to wonder where the records from previous reg and build sign off are. They only have 3000 planes to look after. 

[jackc]

3 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

I am happy enough with raaus, even with its quirks. You only need to deal with the frustration at transfer time.

No drama normally.  Don't agree with that silly w&b request though.

But as blue said, if your mate can do one for you it might save some headache.

Have to wonder where the records from previous reg and build sign off are. They only have 3000 planes to look after. 

Brendan,

Sadly, they have always given me a hard time over anything relating to aircraft.

I’ll see what happens over this W&B  business, but they are going to have to come up with a feasible answer,  not me. Because  this may force them  into doing something and saving other members grief along the way.

I pay my membership for a reason and I expect them to be organised and deal with all aspects of recreational aviation since they make the rules. 
If they can’t get their act together, that’s not my fault. 

[BrendAn]

I told them I removed a mode c transponder once. 1.1 kg I think it was. Then I get a call asking for a new weight and balance. Transponder weighs 15 kg . Need a w&b if you change weight by more than 10 kg. I said it weighs 1.1 kg. Then got another call saying sorry we confused your transponder with a brs rocket system. Definitely didn't have a rocket in the panel.😁

[jackc]

Ironically, I was asked IF I had a transponder in their email, to me.

I forgot about that……nothing was mentioned in the phone call?

This is why I think there records are incomplete.

They are on a fact finding mission? 

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

Ironically, I was asked IF I had a transponder in their email, to me.

I forgot about that……nothing was mentioned in the phone call?

This is why I think there records are incomplete.

They are on a fact finding mission? 

Yes, I agree they should have records to refer too.

 

[FlyBoy1960]

11 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

since CASA has suspended the approval process of RAAus training for some reason

It was because of all the overweight Bristell aircraft coming through, 50-80 kgs heavier than the factory supplied paperwork.  The swarm of accidents brought this and other issues to the attention of CASA and the industry as a whole had to pay the price.