turboplanner

Someone said a while back that Angel Flight had operated for years without a fatality.

 

That wasn't correct, three people were killed, and that triggered some CASA action.

 

Here are the links to the ATSB Report and CASA's Discussion Paper, so you can see the CASA process in action rather than just assume CASA have set their sights on attacking rather than addressing.

 

ww.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-100.aspx

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/newrules/ops/download/dp1317os.pdf

 

 

Ah right, so all the RIPs over the last few years have been imaginary?

 

 

In a light plane, ALTITUDE=SAFETY. Engine failure is of no consequence if you have enough height to glide to an airfield, avoiding all of the litigation-incurring obstacles on the way.

This is the belief which is central to the whole screaming match. A lot of people, like you, believe the same.

 

Forced landings would be a non-event, and CASA's action would not be justifiable if everyone could conduct a safe forced landing

 

They would even be a non-event if people achieved a few bruises and scratches after landing at what what you call the "primary safety feature" - the low stalling speed.

 

However, RA pilots haven't been achieving that in recent years, with a number of aircraft dropping out of the sky and drilling the ground, killing everyone on board.

 

 

Yeah, Rupert probably wrote that himself while he was running the Victorian election campaign.

 

 

What a breath of fresh air to find a new post on the Wellcamp thread.

 

 

Others have indicated that it is not a simple kit upgrade, if it were it would have been done. Your not getting it, it could easily be engine replacements (or the same cost) to fix the issue.

There are plenty of opinions, no one knows the answer, or how it will be handled, so it's not responsible just to paint the worst case scenrio for effect.

 

If you think cost isnt a consideration for a safety recall you have little business experience. Usually a product insurer is involved and they perform detailed risk assessment before approving a claim.

Cost isn't a consideration for a recall which is not triggered by a claim. That's very different to a Warranty issue which is triggered by a claim, but is not what the subject heading is referring to.

 

With our Nissan problems we were talking to Nissan Australia head office and got told nicely it wasnt to be fixed, they would provide some parts, we would pay for labour BS, BS, BS. Pressure from ACCC saw some get help but limited. Similar stories elsewhere

That would relate to a warranty issue, not a safety recall, this thread is about a safety action.

 

How about the issue on Patrols where one rear wheel is known to come off, big safety issue you bet, solution, supply a set of indicators to go on wheel nuts and a sticker saying they have to be checked before each trip. Thats your govt safety recall system at work. Dodgy patch up for lowest cost. Wheels still coming off, rare but deadly also to other road users. They weighed the risk, acted accordingly.

I looked at the Google stuff you are referring to - no mention of a recall. Still a safety issue but in this one the onus is on the operator. Not enough detail in your post , but stud fracture, wheel cracking happens fast if design loads are exceeded.

 

Wagon? Cab/Chassis? Retro/modified cab/chassis? Boat Rack? Load? Tow Bar? Trailer load on Towbar? Trailer VSB1 compliant, operation highway? Dirt Road? Off Road? cruise speed off road? Easy to chew studs of towards the upper end of that lot. Had a guy admit to me once his Patrol with long range tanks, winch fitout, load weighed around 5 tonnes.

 

 

Turboplanner said:In response to this from the following website:

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/lawsuit/general-motors-recall.html

 

Seems that this is not always the case and I can't see that using automotive manufacturers as a benchmark makes sense.

We were talking about Australia

 

 

I thought it was valid, you are talking about customer satisfaction, distribution, MD's, clients and suppliers, it is entirely relevant. You are making a lot of suggestions on how things normally work in this kind of business, so it only seems logical that you would want to share your experience in a way in which it will actually matter versus simply discussing it here.

It's a bit too late for that I'm afraid. I don't like predators.

 

 

Cathie get them and so does Bulahdelah, Quirindi and. Hokatika . in NZ. Nev

We spent a day or so in Hokitika once. The tourist information said it was pronounced Hook Tikka, so we proudly used the word for the whole stay, then when leaving the town in the car heard the local radio station jock sau "And now the local news from Hokytikka."

 

 

Maybe Turbo with your 20 years of sales experience from selling new trucks you could talk to Rod Stiff about how best to deal with his customers and the defect cycle whilst juggling obligations with the regulator?

You can dig into my personal background as much as you like, and come up with more errors; I notice this was done during working hours.

 

The current issue, the Draft Proposal is between CASA and Jabiru, and involves safety, not customer satisfaction, and Rod Stiff doesn't need me to tell him how to run his business.

 

 

Turbs, I guess you might call an Australian Capital city a "local town" but I expected better integrity from some of the larger dealerships in these "little" capital cities.

I just used the words local town loosely. Poor customer attitude can occur in the largest dealers, the Distributor, and the MD himself, as one found out recently after he was kicked out of his chair before he even got it warm. Customer satisfaction is viewed as VERY important by both Client and Supplier who wants continuing business.

 

I still say that the basic principle of risk management leaves consumers on the back foot until the risk of litigation loss exceeds the cost of fixing a problem. Until then, manufacturers and their agents frequently continue to snow their clients.

Not in the automotive industry the Recall programme kicks off immediately a safety issue is found, and cost of fixing is not a consideration, as you can see from some reports of hundreds of thousands of cars recalled from around the world.

 

The question is what has RAA put in place to kick off safety issues in RA, and ensure the Safety Authority Acts to prevent injury/death?

 

Further, I am happy to see that you feel that CASA don't need to become more constructive in their actions. Seems though that the Forsyth report doesn't agree with you on that.

The Forsyth Report has been dragged into this by RAA (the organization who asked CASA to act). Whether it is relevant to this case or not is yet to be seen, since, in response to RAA's request, CASA has provided a DRAFT document, and asked for comments.

The time to judge whether anything in the Forsyth Report, and in fact if it carries any weight, would be when CASA makes a decision.

 

 

My experience with Australian purchased vehicles is that it is true that the responsible service provider (after all, we don't have much manufacturing here) has been really responsive (with recalls, etc) when a safety issue has arisen in their vehicles.

The title of this thread is : CASA - "Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft" and the Draft Proposal is a set of proposed safety measures designed to address safety issues.

 

That relates to the potential for death or serious injury. Customer satisfaction or excess cost of operation is another matter entirely, and while in some cases people may have lost or have the potential to lose a lot of money, that is not relevent to this document and not part of CASA's responsibility. There are Tribunals in the States and Territories which can hear complaints and quickly adjudicate on them. So far I haven't seen any evidence of a Tribunal case being held.

 

Safety issues are the ones relevant to this thread.

 

Although we don't have much manufacturing here, the Distribution of vehicles is an industry which is probably bigger than the manufacturing industries of the 1960's , but today it's not unusual to have en engineer test driving a vehicle in northern NSW with the onroad data streaming directly to another engineer in Japan, Italy etc, and the two of them talking on the phone.

 

I have been repeatedly treated with contempt by numerous different brand vehicle companies when I have complained about mechanical problems. The most common treatment is that I am an isolated complainer, and nobody else is complaining about XXXX issue. Then I find that everyone else is hearing the same story about the problem.

This can sometimes happen in a local town, and even with some distributors, but usually if the Company hears about it, there will be a face to face meeting involving the Dealer Principal and he will get a Performance Letter which is one step on the road to excommunication if the matter is serious. Next time it happens, ring the Company and ask for the Dealer Service Manager, who interfaces with all the Dealer Service Departments.

 

I have flown Jabiru aircraft. I would not hesitate to fly one any time. I have no affilliation with the company. However, I have seen enough evidence to convince me that serious action should be taken to get Jabiru to improve their engine. They still have the potential to be a world class product, if only they address the motor issue.

Agree

 

My only gripe about the CASA instrument is that it will only punish the owners, when it should be directed forcibly toward the only place that the problem/s can really be rectified - and that is the manufacturer. That is why many of us are trying to get political interferance to make CASA act constructively for a change.

This is Compliance and Enforcement which is what CASA is supposed to be doing.

RAA requested the action, but it appears don't like the proposed method of minimising the exposure of passengers and low-skilled pilots.

 

CASA has invited comments, which people should be aware is the process of natural justice.

 

Those comments should be factual and compelling to carry any weight in the final decision which is yet to be made. Political interference goes on with almost every decision made by Government, but carries no weight at all in a safety matter.

 

As far as making CASA act "constructively for a change", the vast majority of people involved in the aviation industry - the thousands who stay out of trouble - are not saying this.

 

 

Bex what did nissan do about the Nissan ZD30 engineId suggest 80% catastrophic failure before 1300 hrs

Only vehicles under warranty were repaired, not replaced, many went on to fail again. Difficult as warranty was only 1000 hrs

 

52 hard part internal changes were made to the engine to attempt to fix

 

After several years the fuel system was altered to CRD and problem went away. Seems it was a ECU problem all the time.

 

How do you think owners felt? With massive depreciation, problems, being towed home 3 or 4 times. Sure it damaged brand but not as much as you might expect, no one died.

 

Govt did stuff all. Recalls are issued by the manufacturer.

 

Market drives majority of recalls and the fact is they are driven by weighing up the cost and the risk of a claim.

 

Give yourself more credit Bx, engine design is more complicated than a cracked tow bar or underspec alloy wheel. What cost.... $200 in parts probably less.

 

Besides all this what do you expect Jabiru to do replace all 3000 plus engines, they will be broke AND still carrying liability. May as well close and be just oneof those

 

No one is dissagreeing something SHOULD be done but doesnt mean it will be. Posters seem to think others dont agree theres a problem. In fact they Need solutions more than anyone else. The current track wont see this happen

No point in writing nonsense. The subject I raised was about control of safety through safety recalls

 

 

Each of the issues I mentioned could have, if not addressed resulted in a catastrophic event.

 

Suggesting Jabiru might have to replace 3,000 engines when the stated fleet is only 1,000, or that the engines would have to be replaced rather than corrective kits fitted or that CASA's action will not lead to a fix is just bluster.

 

 

Most people will continue flying regardless of the outcome.

 

If the total aircraft database is 2500, and the Jab market share 1000, that's only 40% of the market

 

If the colourful speculation comes true and Jabiru goes out of business (which I doubt), and 40% park their aircraft, the 40% will be taken up by other makes as new buyers come in.

 

It would be interesting to see what the market share shift has been in the past 5 years.

 

If RAA registrations and subscriptions drop by 40%, then the numbers would be about what they were, maybe in Lee Ungermann's time when the AUF/RAA was claimed to be more effective than it is now.

 

In my own experience with Jabiru J170, I had two complaints - rudder pedals locking and instability at slow speed, which were both fixed promptly.

 

It's amazing how the exaggerations come in when people get emotional.

 

I recall a few weeks ago Dafydd telling us how unfair the aviation system was, and I was tempted to do something about that, but if I look at the way the same Department of Infrastructure and Regional Services handles automotive issues I'm inclined to think the way they seem to be going with aviation is for the better.

 

For example in my Nissan there have been three safety issues which could cause serious injury or fatality.

 

Without waiting for a fatality, Nissan have issued three recalls.

 

1. A potential brake issue

 

2. A replacement of the genuine tow bar due to cracks found in several units

 

3. A replacement set of mag wheels due to cracks found in several units

 

Where a manufacturer doesn't issue a Recall, the Department orders it and there are sanctions

 

Under this system the Jabiru issues would have been addressed several years ago, it would all be over with many owners not losing the money they lost, dozens of forced landings would not have occurred, and we would not be seeing the farce we are seeing today.

 

 

Involuntary depression is a medical condition, and I believe covered by Medibank, but there are other State support systems which don't cost anything up to and including regular contact and mentoring.

 

The best starting point I would recommend is Beyond Blue.

 

 

Good comparison Bex, they have no idea.

 

 

There are multiple types of depression, some reactive, like losing a loved one, but others are involuntary, which only a professional can treat, and even then, only with medication, so while the above ideas can be good, nothing beats making an appointment with a psychologist if things aren't improving with talk.

 

 

"..........the latest Hatso product 'Sh$tsRus - Armageddon Now!', sponsored by the Royal Astronauts Association, who ........"

 

 

".........flexed my body on full bump, which was nearly as good as full......."

 

 

Seemingly went over Kaz's head too and Kaz is smarter than most and has the qualifications to match. What is your legal background Turbo? Are you a public liability legal specialist?What is the relevance of a licensed coxswain reversing over a diver after all divers weren't accounted for in relation to CASA's action against Jabiru?

The message got through to where I wanted thanks,and as I said before, but will do the two time thing for you, it had nothing to do with a coxswain, a boat, reversing, or a diver.

 

You might be better positioned confounding your buddies back on pprune.

 

 

At least you spell "Hangars" correctly David.

 

 

Bex, I think there's more inbreeding here than in the Appalachians

 

 

.....I need to remember where the battery is, and um, where my teeth are too. These old Goggomobile Darts are so rough, and......."

 

 

.....our tenths of Salty's bottle of vodka.

 

"Were you trying to sell it?" asked The Hungryman

 

"No" said the Drifter

 

"Has it broken down?" asked the Hungryman

 

"No" said the Drifter

 

"What's stopping you then?" asked the Hungryman

 

"Well..Well....I haven't charged the battery up, and................"

 

 

.........the Drifter replied "I used to own beautiful plastic fantastic and then CASA saifd I could only fly it by myself, and now I'm sleeping on that park bench over there"

 

"That's no good" said the Hungry man "How many people did you take up before that"

 

"No one" replied the Drifter "I always flew by myself"

 

"So what's the problem?" asked the Hungryman

 

"Harriet said my pride and joy was worth......................"