Parking up a plane. Slowing down stale fuel?

[facthunter]

 You don't "Pickle" an engine. You "INHIBIT"  It from corrosion. There are recommended Ways of doing that and restoring it to service. Nev

[BrendAn]

3 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Methanol lasts for Ages also if the cap is sealed. It depends on how stable the Substance is. Complex things tend to degrade or oxidise or be attacked by Bacteria or Mould. Nev

But what is in avgas that it makes it last.

Edited yesterday at 05:05 AM by BrendAn

[facthunter]

   Easy to Look up what is in it but the stability of it MUST be the reason. It's probably More a  Question of what's NOT in it. Nev

[skippydiesel]

58 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

would be super cautious about "....a bottle of stabil from BCF or supercheap" and it would likly take more than a bottle to treat an aircraft system (no matter how small. Skippy.

 

I agree with you accept for this statement. Completely unfounded guesswork on your part. You need to do some research then make an informed comment.

Friend - BrendAn,

 

"Completely unfounded guesswork on your part. You need to do some research then make an informed comment."

 

See below for foundation of guess work;

• I am sure that somewhere out there "stabil" can be purchased in larger pack/ quantities, than I see at my Australian mower shop, which are designed for comparatively small (mower etc) fuel systems.
• I am just using observation/logic to guess that "stabil" needs a certain ratio of product to fuel to be effective.
• I assume (possibly incorrectly) that  a powered aircraft, that can carry a human, is likly to have a significantly larger fuel capacity than say a mower, ergo  a lot more than one bottle required.
• Further - "stabil" & other fuel preserving products, would seem to have mixed user reviews, in N America (where it seems to be widely used) ie questionably efficacy, hence my word of caution.
• I have also read that, for best efficacy, these products should be used all the time. This could be a sales strategy and / or the actual need for quite a high concentration in the fuel.
• Lastly - aircraft fuel systems somewhat diffrent to those of mowers etc. What is in "stabil" ? Could it start attacking your tank liner/carburettor seals/etc? Damage to an aircraft fuel system likly to be a tad more costly to repair/replace than that of a mower.

 

Do you have a problem with the above rational?

 

😈

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Friend - BrendAn,

 

"Completely unfounded guesswork on your part. You need to do some research then make an informed comment."

 

See below for foundation of guess work;

• I am sure that somewhere out there "stabil" can be purchased in larger pack/ quantities, than I see at my Australian mower shop, which are designed for comparatively small (mower etc) fuel systems.
• I am just using observation/logic to guess that "stabil" needs a certain ratio of product to fuel to be effective.
• I assume (possibly incorrectly) that  a powered aircraft, that can carry a human, is likly to have a significantly larger fuel capacity than say a mower, ergo  a lot more than one bottle required.
• Further - "stabil" & other fuel preserving products, would seem to have mixed user reviews, in N America (where it seems to be widely used) ie questionably efficacy, hence my word of caution.
• I have also read that, for best efficacy, these products should be used all the time. This could be a sales strategy and / or the actual need for quite a high concentration in the fuel.
• Lastly - aircraft fuel systems somewhat diffrent to those of mowers etc. What is in "stabil" ? Could it start attacking your tank liner/carburettor seals/etc? Damage to an aircraft fuel system likly to be a tad more costly to repair/replace than that of a mower.

 

Do you have a problem with the above rational?

 

😈

Stabil is designed for marine applications where a tank of fuel can be 200 lts plus. Like I said research if it's usable or not. 

I have never seen an raaus aircraft with the fuel capacity of a lot of boats. I never mentioned mowers.

It's not uncommon for boats to have 50 to 150k worth of outboards hanging off the back so I would hope it is not detrimental to the fuel system parts.

 

[facthunter]

The More assumptions the Less it's valid. The need is there. Some mowers are quite Large.  Emergency Generators   Powered Boats. Fire Pumps etc would have similar Needs Like all products research market views opinions an the reliability of the Manufacturer and supplier. Nev

[skippydiesel]

2 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

Stabil is designed for marine applications where a tank of fuel can be 200 lts plus. Like I said research if it's usable or not. 

I have never seen an raaus aircraft with the fuel capacity of a lot of boats. I never mentioned mowers.

It's not uncommon for boats to have 50 to 150k worth of outboards hanging off the back so I would hope it is not detrimental to the fuel system parts.

 

There you go. While you live you learn - "Stabile" used in marine craft? I have never had anything much to do with boats - love the look BUT don't have the "sea legs".

 

Did you mention your knowledge of boats before? - cause the only "stabil" that I have seen is in the mower shop.

 

"It's not uncommon for boats to have 50 to 150k worth of outboards hanging off the back so I would hope it is not detrimental to the fuel system parts."

 

Now there is an assumption and a half!!

 

😈

 

[facthunter]

It's Sta-BIL and there's a Marine One also. Seems like a good Product Nev

[kgwilson]

All this discussion on storage of fuel etc has been covered before on this site. Avgas has a completely different composition to automotive petrol. Avgas is Paraffin based whereas automotive petrol is aromatic hydrocarbon based. Paraffin is what is in wax candles and has quite a low odour. Automotive petrol has a very high odour & the smell is largely due to the evaporation of the light hydrocarbons in it. It is this evaporation that limits its shelf life. Avgas without the lead would detonate quickly especially as compression increases or when more fuel is fed into the cylinder at low rpm with the engine under load.

 

The BP study on fuel stored on vehicle tanks is attachedpetrol-life-vehicle-tanks.pdfpetrol-life-vehicle-tanks.pdfpetrol-life-vehicle-tanks.pdf

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

There you go. While you live you learn - "Stabile" used in marine craft? I have never had anything much to do with boats - love the look BUT don't have the "sea legs".

 

Did you mention your knowledge of boats before? - cause the only "stabil" that I have seen is in the mower shop.

 

"It's not uncommon for boats to have 50 to 150k worth of outboards hanging off the back so I would hope it is not detrimental to the fuel system parts."

 

Now there is an assumption and a half!!

 

😈

 

It makes sense that the mower shops would sell it I suppose. I only know it from boating.

The price of outboard motors is no assumption. 

[BrendAn]

3 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

All this discussion on storage of fuel etc has been covered before on this site. Avgas has a completely different composition to automotive petrol. Avgas is Paraffin based whereas automotive petrol is aromatic hydrocarbon based. Paraffin is what is in wax candles and has quite a low odour. Automotive petrol has a very high odour & the smell is largely due to the evaporation of the light hydrocarbons in it. It is this evaporation that limits its shelf life. Avgas without the lead would detonate quickly especially as compression increases or when more fuel is fed into the cylinder at low rpm with the engine under load.

 

The BP study on fuel stored on vehicle tanks is attachedpetrol-life-vehicle-tanks.pdfpetrol-life-vehicle-tanks.pdfpetrol-life-vehicle-tanks.pdf

Thank you for the explanation.

[Moneybox]

I had 60L in the Sportstar for more than a year while I was refurbishing it. It started the first few times then I was having real trouble firing it up so I drained it all into jerry cans and put fresh 98 in. That fixed the starting problem but left me with three jerry cans of stale fuel. It smelt stale too. I couldn't use it any of our Honda motors because they don't like stale fuel.

 

Since then I've used it all in the Zenith running the 912ul. Doesn't seem to bother it at all but I did throw a little 98 into the mix each time. After all the old fuel was used I've filled it with 91, starts well and runs well.

[Moneybox]

I don't keep petrol in plastic jerry cans, they are porous. If I put plastic jerry cans of Diesel into the boot on our bus we wake in the morning with a headache from the diesel fumes. If I use steel jerry cans you'd never know they were there.

 

Twice I've found plastic jerry cans of petrol spraying a fine mist of fuel into the air. They can't handle the heat, expand and fracture. They are not safe to store petrol in our climate.

[BrendAn]

10 hours ago, Moneybox said:

I had 60L in the Sportstar for more than a year while I was refurbishing it. It started the first few times then I was having real trouble firing it up so I drained it all into jerry cans and put fresh 98 in. That fixed the starting problem but left me with three jerry cans of stale fuel. It smelt stale too. I couldn't use it any of our Honda motors because they don't like stale fuel.

 

Since then I've used it all in the Zenith running the 912ul. Doesn't seem to bother it at all but I did throw a little 98 into the mix each time. After all the old fuel was used I've filled it with 91, starts well and runs well.

 

You didn't really put stale fuel into your aircraft  did you.

[skippydiesel]

"They are not safe to store petrol in our climate."

 

I guess Cue would get a tad hot in summer. Over here in the East, where I am (Gods Country), we only get the occasional 45C day.

I only mention this because I have all my 98 RON in Bunnings Aero Space 20L cheepo plastics x 5 and  x 2 10L plastic ex oil containers. Have been using these for about as long as Bunnings has been operating (?years). So far, no complaints but then I don't sleep with them.

 

I agree that, compared with metal fuel containers, they can not be as safe.😈

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

 

You didn't really put stale fuel into your aircraft  did you.

Why not?😈

[BrendAn]

3 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Why not?😈

I don't even know how to reply to that 

[skippydiesel]

17 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

I don't even know how to reply to that 

 

It has been known, for some considerable time, that "stale" fuel can be revived, to near fresh condition, by adding fresh.

I don't know what time span or condition, constitutes "stale" - may be a subjective assessment by pilot but it is certainly a viable option.

Nor do I know of a formula for the mix, however would not like to go much below 50:50. 

Perhaps length of storage, storage type (open to atmosphere/sealed container/temperature/etc) and stored fuel type (AvGas, 90-98 RON) may all come into the shandy ratio.

 

The reviving of "stale" fuel has been mentioned many times in this Forum and at least once in this Thread and as Moneybox can attest - worked for him😈

[facthunter]

Your LOGIC is astounding. Your Planes engine can Mean your Life. Treat it with More respect and why Muck up Good fuel by mixing it with  Rubbish,  False economy. Nev

[BrendAn]

46 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

 

It has been known, for some considerable time, that "stale" fuel can be revived, to near fresh condition, by adding fresh.

I don't know what time span or condition, constitutes "stale" - may be a subjective assessment by pilot but it is certainly a viable option.

Nor do I know of a formula for the mix, however would not like to go much below 50:50. 

Perhaps length of storage, storage type (open to atmosphere/sealed container/temperature/etc) and stored fuel type (AvGas, 90-98 RON) may all come into the shandy ratio.

 

The reviving of "stale" fuel has been mentioned many times in this Forum and at least once in this Thread and as Moneybox can attest - worked for him😈

Still don't know how to reply. Nevs reply is spot on

Edited 8 hours ago by BrendAn

[BrendAn]

just seen this in supercheap .

Penrite is pretty good quality as far as I know.

Edited 8 hours ago by BrendAn

[facthunter]

Keeping it fresh is One thing . After it's gone Off use it for weed killer or burning off . Nowhere NEAR an engine where it will block small Passages and gum up things.  Nev..

[skippydiesel]

40 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

Still don't know how to reply. Nevs reply is spot on

Okay no problem - From aged memory, I recall this matter being discussed, in significant detail - Conclusion - There is no problem with refreshing "stale" fuel.

 

There is a lot of hysteria/urban myth about fuel deterioraton.

 

Moneybox has demonstrated its a reasonable strategy & I support him in this. 

 

As stated, some judgement is advised.

 

Use a little bit of common sense- Its not unusual for RAA aircraft to not be used for several weeks at a time (weather / domestic demands / work commitments / etc) Are you going to drain the tanks when this happens??  It depends (how much time has passed / type of fuel). Drain or add a significant dose of fresh (shandy).

 

I have been clear all along - this is not a long term (6 months?) storage strategy.

 

In my case, I have refreshed my "stale"  98 RON, with fresh 98, after about 8 weeks - noticed no impact on starting or performance.

 

I know of a Rotax 912ULS powered aircraft, on my field, that is being run on AvGas at the moment. Its only flown about twice, since the beginning of this year - starts first time and flies normally

 

If in doubt,  use the "stale" fuel  it in your mower/etc😈

[Moneybox]

It won't run in the 912ULS, it wont run in either of the Honda quad bikes or the Honda GX275 on the dryblower so just to protect the environment I burned it off in the 912ul. 🙃

[facthunter]

Confucious say "Frying Man who make joke about frying Properry end up as Joke."  Nev