skippydiesel

My Sonex Legacy has been undercoated/treated, during the fabrication/pre assembly stage, using the following spayed on products:

• External: DeSoto 51X349
• Internal: Alodined,/ BMS10-11

(I was not involved in the above stage/process)

Once completed, the airframe was painted with a high pigment automotive/industrial paint. High pigment so that complete coverage could be archived with a single coating.
 

On 12/06/2024 at 7:31 PM, BrendAn said:

You might want to look at skippys post on the prev page

https://www.silent-hektik.de/UL_R_912.htm

Damien - There is a huge range of voltage regulator and opinions on what is best/most cost effective. Do a google search - Everything from ride on mower & motorcycle units, to Rotax OM (the most costly by far).

Everyone swears by their particular choice, so very hard to get an unbiased recommendation. Much will depend on your budget and willingness to try something other than OM.

The following,  non Rotax,  alternatives have some enthusiastic users and detractors:

• Silent Hektik 
• Ducati 
• John Deere
• AVC1
• Carr 5115
• Advanced Power

Whatever you get, make sure it is mounted in a well vented area - VR's have cooling fins to dissipate heat, so need some airflow for long service life.

RFGuy or one of the other electronics experts, on this Forum, are possibly your best bet for advice.

Now that I have my Sonex teething problems sorted (at least for the time being) I am keen to do a series of day flights exploring NSW (could be persuaded to get into Qld/Vic, passport will need updating). 

My departure point is The Oaks, NSW

Suggestions welcome.

5 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I want evidence of the NEED for it. Isn't that reasonable?.   I'm also an atheist for a similar reason.  Evidence. Nev

Not going to happen - Rotax Maintenance Manuals are THE WORD and THE WORD IS GOOD thus saith a Rotax owner, who doesn't want to risk damage to his 912ULS,  by experimenting on leaving off a few cents worth of conductive paste.

In the unlikly event, that you are correct and there is no benefit, neither can there be any harm, in applying the past as specified.😈

4 hours ago, rhtrudder said:

Planning a trip from northern Victoria heading up north along the darling , still in the planning stages, anyone welcome to tag along, Greg 

Keep us posted on your plans, dates, etc

2 minutes ago, facthunter said:

OK Hands up who has ever had a cooked spark plug in a 9xx motor.? . Don't tell me everyone uses wacker or something.  Where are the examples?. Nev

If you purchase your Rotax plugs B from Floods, you have the option, for a small fee, to have the threads "treated" with the appropriate paste - I have never asked what brand but assume they would use Wacker P 12. 

This does not mean that all patrons of B Flood, go to the added small expense, however my money is that most will and those that don't will apply their own.

42 minutes ago, IBob said:

Skippy, that bottom plate has raised edges , to hold in place the bottom rubber under the UC. So a flat plate wouldn't do it.

 

I was thinking replace the washers with a 4mm rectangular plate. Would cover a larger area and likly be as good/better than the washers as a spacer/load distributer.

I think the source of the problem is the holes in the plate, they are slotted in the fore and aft direction, so weakening the plate and allowing it to dish up, as you can see in the pic. I guess they are slotted to allow for variations in the bolt positions, but I think the slotting is excessive.

 

The slotting may be to allow pivoting movement

 

As mentioned earlier - You could also consider hard rubber (or metal) spacer, on the back bolt shaft, between fuselage & retaining plate, to limit the pivoting action example below

42 minutes ago, IBob said:

 

Hi IBob,

Speculation:

• Would not a made to measure rectangular steel plate, say 4-5 mm thick, spread the load better than a stack of washers??
• You could also consider hard rubber (or metal) spacer, back bolt shaft, between fuselage & retaining plate, to limit the pivoting action.

Probably a great deal larger than the RAA level aircraft it looks like.😈

On 03/06/2024 at 5:53 PM, BrendAn said:

just a quality regulator 

Without prejudice, I put forward this regulator that also has a good reputation: https://www.silent-hektik.de/UL_R_912.htm

Hi BurnieM,

I refer you to Rotax 912 Line Maintenance as earlier stated 

Rotax, MAINTENANCE MANUAL LINE, Chapter 12-20-00, Page 57

"...................... Apply heat conduction compound sparingly and do not apply to the first three threads.
Apply small amount of heat conduction compound to spark plug thread and tighten spark plug to 16 Nm (142 in. lb) on the cold engine

"You might get away with doing none of it. but why not apply best practice?  Prevention is better than cure. Nev."

I can not imagine that there  would not be a dissenting word again this sentiment Nev.

Does this mean that you now support my position, on following Rotax service instructions, for  the installation of spark plugs, in their 9 series engines?

In case the above sentiment is not a change of heart by you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotax_912: Rotax 9's have been in production since 1989 (Certified production commenced in 1995). 50,000 units had been produced by 2014. Total flight hours is in excess of 45 million.

Whatever service techniques you may legitimately use on other aircraft  and ground based engines,  it seems to me that the above achievements, by Rotax, strongly suggest following their (not your) service directions  ie "apply best practice"😈

21 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

Unless using a specific product voids the warranty (if there is one) I'd use whatever works. Manufacturers often have commercial agreements with other organistations and get a good deal if they recommend their product. There are usually a number of others that are just as good often less expensive and sometimes better. After all the Rotax is just a glorified Skidoo motor.

I suggest you go back at least a page, possibly two - this is not about a specific product or its cost (I have suggested an alternative, lower cost, more readily available (in AU) product, that still meets/exceeds Rotax specification). 

It seems to have descended into a debate about the merits of the manufacturer (Rotax),  recommended service/maintenance procedure, with regard to using a type of conductive (heat sink) paste on the threads of the plug.

There are those who advocate anti-seize, oil and no conductive past at all in this procedure - all at variance to Rotax recommendation.

31 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I now have to have a Rotax to be able to comment??  .............................Nev

The master of the out of context comment and the non sequential tangent - in your words "get real"

20 minutes ago, facthunter said:

You are trying to fix a problem that does not exist. The sealing washer seals it and conducts heat well and at least 1/2 the thread area is in close contact. It's just another engine after all and they all have spark plugs..Bits of silicone block small oilways too . I stopped using it as a sealant years ago.  Unless parts are scrupulously clean it does not stick. Nev

Nev;

What problem??

When you have your own Rotax 9 you may do as you wish with it.

I choose to  follow Rotax instructions, for the maintenance of their engines.

" Bits of silicone block small oilways too. I stopped using it as a sealant years ago.  I stopped using it as a sealant years ago".

What on earth has silicon sealant got to do with the use of thermal/conductive paste on spark plug thread ????

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

You are not consistent there when you look for different oils and parts. starters etc. Nev

I understand that you might think this, however my search for alternative service items is ALWAYS with the proviso that they meet/exceed Rotax specifications.

When it comes to matters of maintenance technique & specification - I follow the book.

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

 Silicone is an excellent Heat insulation Material. Look it up. It can stand high temps. Behaves as a non metal.  Nev

I agree. 

I think it likly that the heatsink paste, selected by Rotax, has a high zinc (metal) content, presumably to counter the insulating properties of the silicon. Further speculation, the combination of zinc & silicon is likly to have much to do with raising the melting point of the paste, so that it persists/remains in position doing its job.

I note that pastes of this nature are prevalent in the electronic world for use with heat sink systems. I presume that the specification that product Rotax has selected has an appropriate mix/ratio of insulating silicon: zinc for the purpose intended.

"Properties Specific features • Thermally conductive

Technical data General Characteristics Property Condition Value Method

Appearance - white -

Bleeding (at 200°C/30h) - max. 0.4 % FED-STD 791 M 321

Density 23 °C 2.1 g/cm³ DIN EN ISO 1183-1 A

Dielectric strength - 10 kV/mm IEC 60243-1

Dissipation factor 50 Hz 9 x 10⁻³ IEC 62631-2-1

Loss of weight⁽¹⁾ - max. 1.2 % FED-STD 791 M 321

Operating temperature range - -40 - 200 °C -

Penetration (unworked)⁽²⁾ - 194 - 238 1/10mm DIN ISO 2137

Permittivity 50 Hz 3.5 IEC 62631-2-1

Solidifying point - approx. -45 °C -

Thermal conductivity - 0.6 - 0.8 W/m.K ASTM D 5470-12"

Factunter/BurnieM

I have no issue with your advice, for all ground based vehicles and indeed for all non Rotax 9 aircraft engines (of which I know nothing about maintenance). Indeed I pretty well practise what you are preaching BUT when it comes to Rotax 9 aircraft engines - the Rotax Maintenance Manuals are my bible and I would advise others to follow only Rotax advice.

The Peter Anson Jack - http://www.ansoneng.com/lightweight-screw-jack/

I had to fabricate an adapter for my Sonex wheel axle, for the jack "saddle" to lift against but otherwise have found this little jack to be "the ants pants"

It's amazing how conversations on this Forum can dive down unexpected, often entertaining/instructive "rabbit holes".

This is not one of those beneficial digressions - there are certain people who have voiced opinions, completely unrelated to the maintenance of Rotax 9 engines regarding the installation of spark plugs.

I warn Rotax maintainers against these opinions (anti size and unspecified lubricants) -  they have no application  in the installation of spark plugs in Rotax 9 engines. 

Rotax, MAINTENANCE MANUAL LINE, Chapter 12-20-00, Page 57

"...................... Apply heat conduction compound sparingly and do not apply to the first three threads.
Apply small amount of heat conduction compound to spark plug thread and tighten spark plug to 16 Nm (142 in. lb) on the cold engine

33 minutes ago, Red said:

The whole point (according to Rotax) is for heat transfer purposes.

 

Heat & electrical conductivity.

31 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I'd just use Anti seize. I don't know how silicone takes the possible heat. The main thing is to look after the alloy thread in the head.. A helicoil is not a suitable repair. for spark plug threads.  Nev

I can not make an informed comment, other than to say when it comes to Rotax product recommendations, I go by their advice, whenever possible.

In this case (heat sink compound for spark plugs) Rotax advise Wacker P12 Paste - very difficult to find in Au. Rotax Owners Forum technician Roger Lee, has suggested MG Chemicals  Heat Transfer Compound Silicon as an appropriate substitute, that he has used to good effect for 23 years.

https://www.rotax-owner.com/en/912-914-technical-questions/9293-is-this-spark-plug-thermal-paste-ok?start=15

1 hour ago, spacesailor said:

There is a small ' half circle ' alloy jack , suitable for our light planes .

Jamb it under the Axel of that flat tyre, roll a little & the wheel comes up off the ground , perfect. 

spacesailor

Peter Anson makes a beauty at a very reasonable price

I lust after (the look of) the straight tailed Cessna

43 minutes ago, JG3 said:

A spare tube or patch kits are useless without an adequate jack to get the wheel off. Not always easy to find a good jacking point on aircraft landing gear. Been there and caught out that way.... I've found that the pressurized magic bottles are the best way to go. Got me out of trouble once and helped a couple of others.

Thanks for that JG3

Wait a minute --- JG 3 ---any relation to P3?????😈

Could this be a plot??? Who/ Me? Paranoid??????