skippydiesel

It seems to me, as one who is certainly not up on all the regulations, that if you modify , in any way, a factory built aircraft, without a written permission from the said factory,  you are courting potential problems.

You may feel (& have good grounds) that the modification had no bearing on the claim incident BUT if the insurers think otherwise, you will have to weigh the costs of taking legal action, against the value of the pay out, assuming that you win (costs of the action are not always awarded by the court).

My advice - if you want to indulge in mods (& I do) register your factory built,as an experimental (eg 24 E) and make sure the insurance company is aware (in writing) of any changes you are making OR purchase a 19 aircraft where everything is pretty much in the experimental category and the insurer should/must know this, when they accept your premium payment.

Any insurance cover will be degraded or even nullified, if you are found to have broken "the rules".

It should be understood, by all who take out insurance, that the provider (underwriters etc) is providing a service that they wish to make a profit from. They are not in the business of paying out on a claim, if there are grounds to reduce or completely avoid part or all of the insured value.

19 minutes ago, petercoota said:

I remembered the name from years ago too. I looked them up, now a division of the 3M Company. They make headsets & noise protection gear for all sorts of industries, but not aviation anymore apparently.

Me thinks you didn't look very far -https://www.defcon.com.au/product/peltor-fixed-wing-aviation-headsets/  and https://www.ozpilot.com.au/pilot-supplies-aviation-headsets-peltor-headsets

Why they make one especially for R 4 helicopets is beyond me but someone on this Forum will know.

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

CS is a different matter where you need something doing the work of a governor. You asked about IFA.   That's why I replied.. .. Nev

Sorry I miss understood - would I be correct in saying you are not supporting electric IFA as an unnecessary compilation of what should be a simple mechanism?

If my statement above is correct - I agree with you.

I guess I am looking at the possibilities of two in flight adjustable concepts - one using a CS  the other purely adjusted by the pilot, IFA, as flight conditions present themselves.

I started only considering CS but with my investigation of Kasper I seem to have opened up an alternative possibility IFA.

Way back in 1990's  I flew an aircraft fitted with Peltor Headsets. Back then I was very impressed with their fit/comfort/performance.

My current aircraft came with David Clark (DC )Headsets (pilot side ANR). The DC's work fine and I even use the ANR feature but only on very long trips (can leave me with a bit of short term tinnitus).

Despite the good service of the DC's, I have always hankered after the Peltor's - does anyone have experience of this make and if so what model are you commenting on??? 

21 minutes ago, facthunter said:

IF you value safety, and reliability, you wouldn't consider electric actuation in this application. it's wasted money and heavier and fails if you have an electrical problem. It goes straight over the top of the engine in the centre from the dash.  Simple as and a pitch lever is intuitive with throttle and mixture (if fitted)  and carb heat. You could notch or graduate it to use proven adjustments or ranges like Take off range and cruise range. Nev

17 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

Ye I am certainly more partial to the mechanical lever one for sure. Simpler and much less to go wrong..and of course MUCH cheaper

 

 

You both have my attention.

I would point out that  all of the CS/IFA manufacturers supplying the LSA market (that I have been able to find so far) offer electric control. Airmaster offers only electric and have built an enviable reputation doing so. Most of the others offer hydraulic and electric (MT-Propeller), at least one offers electric over hydraulic (Alisport Idrovario) and Kaspar offers Bowden, linkage, hydraulic and if I understand correctly, electric versions of the Bowden & hydraulic.

It has been suggested to me that Airmasters mini slip ring system can take the maintenance/reliability, of at least this part, to 800 hrs plus - not too shabby!

So the demand would appear to be there for electric - seems that attraction of relativly easy installation and the allure of CS is defying your logic.

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

But with that you will need a stepper driver for precise movement. Not a weighty thing, but something more to erode MTOW and to require maintenance.

 

Remember KISS, and not the mob made for lovin' you.

I hear you but have sort of fallen in love (become irrational) with the idea of a CS/IFA. So in a few months when aircraft rebuild complete I will be taking what I have learned from this conversation, combining that with my limited GA CS experience and purchasing a CS/IFA prop.

As for my question on CS/IFA systems - seems to be that there is a tendency to overcomplicate (particularly for Rotax 9 engine applications). Hence my observation that off the shelf linear actuators are available and if that isn't the go, a step/stepper motor, coupled to a "jack" screw, located on top of the crankcase & driving through the hollow prop shaft to came in the hub, seems like a fairly simple way of moving the blades.

I appreciate Nev's comment about a lever  however  electrical wires are much easier to "pass" through a firewall then levers or cables. I note that Kasper offer a "Borden Cable" or lever or electric variously direct acting or through a hydraulic system.

So far I have found only a very small number of CS/IFA pop makers.

Have asked all to give me a costed recommendation, delivered to NSW.

Sent a detailed description of my aircraft, its performance as is and aimed for improvements

I have expressed a preference for a 2 blade prop but have made a point of not ruling out a 3 blade (if that's what they strongly recommend)

Asked all to give me the rational behind their recommendation (seems to be a big ask)

Can't say I am up with the Rule Book but I always plan with alternate & en-rout airdrome in mind - its not just weather that can put a spanner in the destination airport closing unexpectedly. I carry 60 minute emergency/holding fuel, have sussed out alternate strip radio frequencies, special instructions and AGL - may sound a tad anal but then that just me and it makes me feel I have acted professionally.

In my , limited to one aircraft over about 11-12 years, the hull insurance (bit like automotive comprehensive) reduces annually with "no claims" and is not related directly to hours flown. Make a claim, after 11-12 years without, be ready to need heart start stimulation for how much your premium jumps up.

I have a small electric  linear move, for want of a better word, ram - seems a perfect concept for the pitch actuating device.

If that doesnt do the job , how about an electric step motor, doing the same thing. To my untutored mind  far lighter & simpler than what is currently on offer in the electric pitch adjustment market.

23 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

What..... specs on the Eprop CS?

 

Yep!  - E-Prop must surely be letting a few morsels out of the "Top Secret" room. Just might encourage a potential buyer to hold on until they are released.

All fair comments - One of my expectations of a Forum like this is the frank exchange of experience. I guess in my world this would include commenting on having a good/bad experiencing of a particular product/service. Such an exchange of information does have its drawbacks but in general helps the Forum contributors to be  better informed/make better decisions.

Hi Nev -

Would you have some thaughts on:

Why are hydraulic CS props so much lighter than electric?

With the exception of Kaspar, all of the CS props I have looked at seem to locate the pitch control mechanism in the hub. I can understand this for solid propeller shaft systems but not for the hollow Rotax. Kaspar seem to have the idea - locate the actuating (hydraulic/manual) system on the top of the engine, change pitch by way of a rod, through hollow shaft, acting on a cam arrangement in the hub, which changes blade angle/pitch - your take?

How would you compare the efficacy (I understand the mechanical differences); a manual IFA pitch change,  with a CS type system ? (Kaspar offers both)

2 minutes ago, Yenn said:

Skippy. I sympathise with you, even after explaining what you want, none of us has given an answer. You will just have to live with it. I have C/S endorsement, but haven't used one for years although I did fly an RV10 as a passenger and found it really great to use. My experience with suppliers is that they are very hard to track down and get answers from.

 Hi Yenn - thanks for the sympathy. I guess I thought there would be a whole lot of CS/IFA drivers of  600 kg aircraft out there - but may be not.

So far your observation on suppliers & their product(s) is correct. I am passing on, to the Thread,  the recommendations as they come in but so far nothing has come with anything much in the way of a justification ((all a bit "snake oil")

Hi Nev - With all your experience,  I would have thought you might have an opinion on potential CS propeller suppliers and their props.

In addition to those already mentioned  - have just written to Kaspar Propellers - at this , early,  stage looks like they do a range of In Flight Adjustable's, that can be adjusted by several means including a magic electronic box that may give a CS type control.

Cant help but comment:

I ask a question about propeller suppliers & their products - responses on topic - like getting blood from a stone

I ask a question about a bit of tubing - responses120%  amazing and, in some, a tad "snarky".

We are a strange breed!

Been checking out the Kaspar catalogue - which of the several propeller control systems do you use??

1 hour ago, 409tonner said:

Mine runs the disk it uses alternator type brushes and I have never had to replace them and still plenty of length left. The prop was fitted by the previous owner just before I bought the aircraft off him as the woodcomp had time expired and no longer a dealer in Australia. The airmaster was purchased second hand with low hours and actually came off a tecnam which was going to be used for training and converted back to fixed pitch for simplicity so it wasn’t even specced for the Sting . I never few the aircraft with woodcomp In flight adjustable but previous owner reckoned the airmaster was much better. He got approval off TL ultralights to fit the prop.

Everyone that flys with me is impressed by the performance over a fixed pitch.

Hope this helps  with your decision . I don’t think you would be disappointed with the performance increase for the extra money spent.

Better & better.

Now that you have broken the damn, I hope there will be a flood of correspondents in a similar vein - thanks again

33 minutes ago, 409tonner said:

I posted this back in may when you asked the same question.

 I have run this cs unit for the last five years and couldn’t be happier with it. See below again!
I run an airmaster with warp drive blades on my 912uls Sting and the performance is exceptional. In take off mode the engine revs to 5700 rpm and the acceleration pushes you back into the seat . I switch it to climb mode 5500rpm about 100 ft off the ground and put the flaps away as it will quickly accelerate through max flap speed 77knts and climb out solo at 80knts at 1300 -1500 ftpm depending on the day And fully loaded it will climb out at 1000 + and temps stay in the green . In the cruise mode 5000 rpm at 24in manifold pressure I get about 115ktas at 15-16l hr and at 26in I get about 125 ktas at 18lhr I plan on 115knts and 18lhr. It is also very good slowing down the aircraft when I put it back to climb mode when I am setting up for landing on down wind . I have also had the misfortune of using the feather mode when I had an engine failure due to oil pump drive pin breaking and locked the engine during my BFR of all things we were 5 miles to the SW of the airport at 2500 agl and made it back to airport with ease . Passed my BFR ? and rotaxs do break. It is also very easy to service . Hope this helps again.

Found your, again very comprehensive,  response in May - my question at that time related to a single aircraft & propeller system, a Europa fitted with an Airmaster CS 3 blade Warp Drive, that I came very near to purchasing - only pulling out  at the disappointed in TIF, last minute.

Did the Airmaster come with the aircraft or have you "optioned up"?

My current question spreads the net far wider - I am interested in obtaining the best information I can regarding a number of CS/IFA propeller suppliers and the performance of their propellers, with a view to making a purchase sometime in the next 3-6 months (if aircraft rebuild goes to plan).

If you read my erlier comments - I would consider Airmaster using a 2 blade Sensenich prop (AP420CTF-SNR70E) to be the leading contender (at this time).

Great to hear from you 409tonner - Sorry but I have no clear recollection of your previous reply (will try & find it).

At any rate, a first class answear, full of relevant information, addressing the manufactures credibility (great), the type of prop used (also great)

Are you using the disk type slip ring or the mini?

Have you ever considered another Airmaster prop or another manufacturer & their prop? If so perhaps you would tell why you didn't go in that direction?

My home paddock/strip is 400 m from the stock yards to the base of tall trees and on the side of a hill. Stockyard(west) end has low trees & power line. East end has a lot of tall trees  - no landing area for about 2 km.  Creek line at base of hill can reduce over all length by 1/3. This is why I must preserve my TO performance but have always hankered after a CS or IFA to maximise cruise.

I have no experience but Kyle of Kyle Communications  (on this Forum) is agent for E-Prop. He speaks very highly of its performance and he sounds like a good guy. 

Oh! I forgot to ask for any erly specifications that might be floating around - weight, blade selection, control system, etc, etc.

Kyle - please keep me posted on the CS prop from E-prop. Could be that when I get my Zephyr back in the air the E-prop may have come onto the market - here's wishing.

3 hours ago, M61A1 said:

Here is someone who used an MT CS prop.

Perhaps there is generally silence because your responses are abrasive and bordering on rude.

It appears that every response is met with ridicule.

 

Great video M61A1 - If only  could afford a Rotax 915 IS Plus a linked/FADEC type ? propeller system. 

A comment on the marriage of a 141 Hp turbo  engine/CS prop motivating a little Kitfox - Everyone has different motives/pleasures in recreational aviation. This guy is obviously into the STOL world.

The MPH & US Gallons all sound good, until its converted to my comfort zone, litres and knots. So for a cruise of about 110 knots he is using about 38 L/hr  - doesn't "press my buttons"

If I had this power plant, optimised for altitude, I would stick it in something with a lot more speed/econamy potential but then I wouldn't be able to land on a mountain top with a 50 m ground ole..

That's great! My Thanks.

Have just written to the factory, seeking costed recommendations for Rotax 912 ULS powered ATEC Zephyr.

My home strip is marginal to say the least, so ground adjustable prop set for advantage TO/Climb Out. 

I wish to preserve the ground role (sub 100 M on grass) climb out (1500 f/mint + @ 60 -70 knots) but improve on cruise.

Existing  cruise is 100-110 knots  @ 500-5200 rpm for a fuel burn of -13 L/h to -14 L/h. I flight plan at a conservative 14L/hr. I have seen just under 120 knots @ 5500 RPM at 500 ft (beach run). POH has a max speed of 124 knots.

With a CS/Inflight adjust I would hope to have an econamy cruise of 115-120 knots.

Do you think this is possible with the right Kaspar AND what is the factory like to deal with AND which Kaspar & control system do you have ????