No Avgas 100LL by 2030 ??

[facthunter]

Anyone can Fiddle with "ordinary" fuel  sold at the Pump. STRICT conditions apply to Aviation use Products.  It's done under the" release note" Principle.  Fake it and you'd be liable.  Let's say you are operating commercially  or just carrying someone  or crash- Land on a House and you don't use it and come to grief. Maybe you lose YOUR House. Don't shoot ME . I'm only the Messenger. Nev

[facthunter]

How about a reply. T510? Is it a Laughing Matter?  I wouldn't think so. Nev

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, T510 said:

I'm with you on this one Skip, apart from IOR's marketing material there seems to be very little technical data supporting their clams.

 

I can't find a specific standard for AvPULP, it appears to be made to the usual fuel industry PULP standard but with claims of "superior aviation specification additives".

 

The only advantage I see to AvPULP is the convenience if you happen to be at one of the 4 airports that have it available.

If I use any of the "...4 airports..."  the price of AvPulp will be compared with local supply of 98 RON and a decision made, on the day,  whom to purchase from.

 

Those that bleat on about the superior quality of aviation specific fuel, do so while ignoring the many thousandths of ULP burning Rotax 9's that have been in operation, all over the world, for the paste 37 years. Not suggesting that there may never have  been the occasional fuel related incident  -  not to diffrent to AvGas burners.

 

I have no concerns at all, using 98 RON from a well patronised (high tun over) servo.  I do not subscribe to, the hype that surrounds aviation supplied products. If I did, I would not be flying an "experimental" aircraft.

 

I am not suggesting its all rubbish, just that purchasers who preferer to make their own decisions, use a bit of common sense, (do the research) when contemplating purchasing an aircraft, its maintenance/service needs and of course the fuel to power it.

 

Those that wish to have the illusion of enhanced safety/reliability, should purchase factory built/certified aircraft and have a suitably qualified mechanic maintain it and only ever put fuel in it, that claims to be an aviation specific product containing"superior aviation specification additives". 😈

Edited yesterday at 06:06 AM by skippydiesel

[facthunter]

What utter BS. Skip.Using words liken Bleat and Illusions, should  NOT be needed to makea  CASE. Haven't you ever had DUD fuel in your car? I have and know of many more where a lot of damage and expense resulted, In a Plane it would have been a lot more serious. Maybe FATAL? The authority would be negligent in the Circumstances IF it didn't act to Verify the Product. Your Obsession with saving a few Cents here and there is clouding your Logic.  Safety is Improved where the Product QUALITY is More certain. . Is that NOT so?  Nev

[rodgerc]

Did anyone say, ethylene diamine?

 

If you’re short on time or fall asleep reading, jump to pages 61 and 62. 

 

 https://www.atsb.gov.au/sites/default/files/media/33960/sir200103_001.pdf

[kgwilson]

I have used automotive unleaded 98 in my Jab 3300 since new and Avgas when I am away at a place I could not get 98 ULP. The engine has never missed a beat except when one of the coils  developed a fault. The plugs are always black but the oil stays clean and an endoscope inspection of cylinders & heads show clean internals & leakdowns are spot on. I couldn't care less about Avgas disappearing other than the QA aspect. 

 

The biggest issue is ensuring quality & freshness especially when refuelling in remote areas.

[T510]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

How about a reply. T510? Is it a Laughing Matter?  I wouldn't think so. Nev

Your response is laughable, especially the random capitals.

 

Thousands of aircraft have been safely flying all over the world for decades on automotive fuel. Just because IOR release AVpulp at 4 airports in NSW and Vic you carry on like PULP is no longer suitable and should be avoided at all costs.

 

If we all bought in to your negativity and wild theoretical situations were we might lose OUR house we would give up flying straight away.

 

You always say don't shoot the messenger, I am not, it is the message I have an issue with.

 

Comments like "Auto fuel is made of anything they want to Put in it.. " is laughable and complete misinformation. The petroleum industry is highly regulated and for good reason

[facthunter]

You haven't heard of anyone having a problem with fuel in their vehicles KG?

  T510, Why worry about the random capitals? That's not the REAL issue Here. It's about being able to have a sensible discussion on serious Matters, on THIS Forum lately.  Reliable quality control for Aviation Fuel is a recognized problem World wide. . A standard was going to have to be set by the  Aviation Authorities before Avgas becomes unavailable Supervised/controled in much the same way as Avgas was and Avtur still is to the delivery point. Aviation fuel tankers are nothing like the ones that transport Motor fuels everywhere. They are much more sophisticated. The Biological additives in Avtur make it unsafe for your skin to come in contact with.

  A PIC's duty, defined by Law, is to operate the Plane in the Most safe manner possible . Nev

 

[BurnieM]

How about a little structured, polite discussion ?

 

There are also many state and federal laws about the quality, storage and sale of retail petrol.

 

One or two of the smaller chains have from time to time had issues with undocumented ethanol (altho not recently) and dirt and water in storage tanks.

For this reason I only purchase (for cars, motorcycles and planes) from the main chains Ampol, Shell, BP and 7/11 (Mobil). 

When filling from a container I use a Mr Funnel filter.

 

No refuelling process is ever perfect, including from airfield suppliers, but this works for me.

 

 

[facthunter]

Why wouldn't all pilots welcome More Quality assurance. You put the best Oils and tires in/on your vehicles don't you.? Anyhow the Industry will require it on safety grounds as they are required to do probably by ICAO to meet World Standards.. RAAus might apply for a dispensation but perhaps that could be used by their detractors to label them as "anything goes"and lacking responsible safety concerns. Again, I'm just the Messenger. Not someone  who will only say what you want to Hear. Nev

Edited 23 hours ago by facthunter

[kgwilson]

I only buy my petrol from busy reputable outlets. I know the Manager of my local supplier and that the underground tanks are fairly new. I know the quality control is lower than that required for Avgas but I always buy fresh and don't store it and filter through a Mr Funnel. If I don't fly for more than a couple of months I drain the tank and use it in my wifes car & the lawnmower. The aromatic hydrocarbons in 98 unleaded evaporate off quickly especially when there is a large air space in the tank so I like to add some fresh after the aircraft has been sitting for more than 3 weeks. BP recommends adding some fresh after a maximum of 5 weeks.

 

I have heard of people having issues with bad fuel but not anyone I know or in recent years. I had a personal problem with my company car back in the 1980s. The oil level on the dipstick began rising and others were having the same issue. Diesel had been put in the company's petrol supply tank. Mistakes are always possible as everything is managed by humans. As time has moved on so have the controls. 

 

I have seen plenty of lead fouled plugs and known issues with valve guides & seats. My engine has only done 400 or so hours but the risks of using Avgas compared to Automotive petrol are minimal with appropriate management and care. And the engine is all the better for it.

[Thruster88]

I would use unleaded 98 in my avgas burners if it was legal to do so.

 

The Rotax 916 has a compression ratio of 9:1, it runs 50, yes 50 inches of manifold pressure to achieve the 160hp from the same 1352cc as a 912uls. Service ceiling is 23,000 feet. I think that covers detonation and vapour lock.

[skippydiesel]

Thruster 88,

 

I don't follow; Are you suing 98 RON, or not, in your Rotax 916?😈

[Reynard]

15 hours ago, rodgerc said:

Did anyone say, ethylene diamine?

 

If you’re short on time or fall asleep reading, jump to pages 61 and 62. 

 

 https://www.atsb.gov.au/sites/default/files/media/33960/sir200103_001.pdf

Thanks for that Rodgerc - in a distant previous life, I supplied ethylene diamine (and other neutralising and filming amines) to oil refineries and many other industrial processes.
 I’m very aware of the circumstances at Mobil Altona and what led to the amine ending up in Avgas back in the ‘90s. Fortunately for me, it was a competitors product, but ultimately there was no fault by the supplier.  The root cause was the operation of the alkylation plant being unstable leading to acid carryover into downstream processes. The neutralising amine is routinely dosed to these downstream processes to neutralise the acid and thereby limit corrosion. The suppliers responsibility is to monitor the pH and adjust the amine dose accordingly. The more acid carryover, the lower the pH in the downstream processes- keep cranking up the amine dose.  The suppliers performance was measured by the corrosion rate.  This led to a massive overdose of amine.  Of course, Mobil may have a different opinion - it’s usually the supplier that cops it.

 

Anyhow, getting a bit off track.  Of course we are largely relying on overseas refineries these days, with the exception of Avgas which predominantly is produced at Viva in Geelong-that is until they had a fire in their alkylation unit. 

[facthunter]

 That was rectified wasn't it? It doesn't matter if Avgas is not going to be continued.. Nev

[facthunter]

50 inches  MP is only 20 inches of boost at sea level. Approx 10 Psi. Nev

[Thruster88]

6 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Thruster 88,

 

I don't follow; Are you suing 98 RON, or not, in your Rotax 916?😈

I don't have a Rotax 916, yet.

 

Was using the example of the 916 to show how good 98 pulp is in a high compression turbocharged engine with a very high specific output.

[Reynard]

6 hours ago, facthunter said:

 That was rectified wasn't it? It doesn't matter if Avgas is not going to be continued.. Nev

I don’t have an update on the repairs at Viva, but the same unit could produce AvPULP.

[Reynard]

https://www.businessnewsaustralia.com/articles/viva-energy-restarts-key-geelong-refinery-unit-after-fire-but-alkylation-plant-to-stay-offline-through-2027.html