Two Governing Bodies

[fly_tornado]

I believe that's basically how the split will happen. Those people that don't care about what the RAA does with its fees won't be interested in change. Those people that are gaming the system won't want to take the risk of being caught with a new licensing body and those that gain advantage from the current setup won't want to change.

 

 

[facthunter]

That sounds highly philosophical but I can't relate to it F t. Nev

 

 

[Bandit12]

It is interesting to see the spread of scores....I suspect that it would be very difficult (read next to impossible) to muster the political clout to form a single body to manage recreational aviation in Australia. You would need to start with an already strong organisation and work up a very enticing proposal to be taken seriously by CASA and the wider government. Doesn't seem likely to me anyway.

 

Ian, perhaps you need to a different poll. Try the simple options of "leave everything as it is (ie try to fix what we have)", or start anew with a competing organisation to manage the equivalent of current RA-Aus aircraft and certificates. There is too much noise in the questions above, and my ideas may well be incorrect but I just can't see the last two options being viable in the near future.

 

One problem with surveying opinion will be the apathy that many people have referred to. Most members of the forum won't vote on the poll or express an opinion. Many more RA-Aus members won't express an opinion either.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Or better still, get back on to the issues you can do something about

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/raaus-stopping-membership.46127/page-10

 

For those who were critical that members were just posting rumour and innuendo a8 months ago, here are some surprisingly frank revelations which will help to explain some things for you including financial expenditure.

 

(but please comment back on this on the -stopping-membership thread to keep that continuity going)

 

 

[fly_tornado]

That sounds highly philosophical but I can't relate to it F t. Nev

Not really, but the energy needed to get a static organisation adapting to change is usually more than the energy needed to start from fresh. Think of the organisation as a car, easier to buy a new one than keep fixing the old one.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Standing looking at the old broken car doing a Basil Faulty while beating it with a stick , as the corrective action will always be much harder than buying a new one....However some simple preventative maintenance and a more hands on (the tools) may well change that Rule that you have.......

 

 

[facthunter]

The building may be OK. Just change the inmates. Analogies have to be relevent. Most aren't..nev

 

 

[Zibi]

I believe that's basically how the split will happen. Those people that don't care about what the RAA does with its fees won't be interested in change. Those people that are gaming the system won't want to take the risk of being caught with a new licensing body and those that gain advantage from the current setup won't want to change.

Or you could argue that people who don't mind following the rules and regulations will stay with RAA and those who want to have it their way and rules be damned will go to the new one.

So that this annoying RAA / CASA inspector will stop bugging them...

 

It's never as easy as people make it to be. World isn't black and white.

 

 

[Bandit12]

Analogies have to be relevent. Most aren't..nev

Wise words....

 

 

[shags_j]

Lets seperate lsa and little stuff...

 

 

[eightyknots]

why just stop at 2 groups, I think there should be a seperate self administering group for each state and then each colour of aircraft.

That seems pretty excessive

 

so has anyone had a look @ www.raanz.org.nz ?its a very lean, almost sparse, the monthly magazine is 3-4 pages

 

membership is only $70/30 p/a

Refer to my post #15 (see below); I would still like an answer to the question of how much it costs to belong to RA Aus.

 

...The RAANZ charges $NZD 70.00/annum for flying members ($30 for associate members) which is about $AUD 55.00 (and $25) respectively. The Annual aircraft inspection is free to RAANZ members.How does that compare with RA-Aus anyone?

[turboplanner]

What's LSA? which would be a very sensitive question for some people right now.

 

 

[eightyknots]

For further illuminating and politically exciting comments please refer to the Juliar thread and you'll be reading for weeks

So many people read that thread that it became totally worn out. It's no longer able to be read in this Forum.

 

Personally, I was glad to see it go as there was little of value to the recreational flying community.

 

 

[M61A1]

Andys@coffs' date=' post: 238659, member: 94[/email']]So, lets try again, what are the things that the LP crowd want removed, or added to what RAA do today? Please make sure that what ever it is that you ask for is truely a LP/HP point of differntiation and not something that could apply equally to both?

 

If I was your RAA rep, what message would you convey to me with a view to change. Try and convince me that its in our best interests?

 

Andy

 

(PS,here is the required smilley! . )

 

Just joking Im really

I've given it some further thought. I think,(for myself) that perhaps the HP/LP differentiation need not exist, if all the training requirements were soley competency based rather than time plus competancy (Based on the concept that the training requirents were changed because of the introduction of HP aircraft).

I'm not not a moment suggesting that I am any more or less competent than others. It does provide an avenue for those who are motivated, to educate themselves, without parting with hard earned cash unnecessarily, while still providing the necessary training for those who are happy to fork over wads of cash and be spoon fed. As an example, I have the opportunity to learn my Nav ground school and part of the flight training with Test Pilot who has flown Mirages, Hornets, Huey's and is still current on Blackhawk and Kiowa, but because 1. His instructor rating is no longer current (not a test pilot requirement) and 2.RAAus says I must do X number of school hours, It won't happen.

 

I will still learn what I can from him, but I will have to go and pay for training that I would consider less comprehensive. I think that If you cab get yourself as near as possible to the required standard, then the only requirement need be that you demonstrate that.

 

As for the them & us thing between LP & HP, I can see that it does exist on both sides of the fence, I do know that I have been made to feel like some kind of aerial hillbilly, and I know that some consider the HP folk to be well heeled and snobbish. I don't know how to fix it.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

That seems pretty excessive

 

Refer to my post #15 (see below); I would still like an answer to the question of how much it costs to belong to RA Aus.

Sorry the sarcasm obviously didnt come across in the post.....anything more that what we have at present is, IMHO excessive, arguably what we have at present would be better if it consolidated down to a smaller number.....

 

Costs are here:- http://www.raa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Schedule-of-fees-and-charges.pdf

 

Andy

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't get this HP/LP thing. 85 kts is the divider. hardly HP. Perhaps more time had to be devoted to navigation with planes going across Australia regularly and more radio and going close to CTA.steps etc... There are too many endorsements on RAAus certs.

 

Life can't be that difficult. You even have the question of currency. IF you intend to fly something you are not familiar with get a check out with an Instructor. There are no aircraft endorsements anyhow., as such, but there would generally be foolishness in just jumping in something. You have to do this if it is single seat, but you get an extensive briefing and fly something similar with someone else first if it is very different. ( especially things with tailwheels and small rudders )Nev

 

 

[eightyknots]

Sorry the sarcasm obviously didnt come across in the post.....anything more that what we have at present is, IMHO excessive, arguably what we have at present would be better if it consolidated down to a smaller number.....Costs are here:- http://www.raa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Schedule-of-fees-and-charges.pdf

 

Andy

Thanks Andy. For some reason RA Aus charges far more than RAANZ.

 

I wonder why? (could it be because there aren't two governing bodies in Australia??)

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Thanks Andy. For some reason RA Aus charges far more than RAANZ.I wonder why? (could it be because there aren't two governing bodies in Australia??)

I think Nev covered some of it the membership rates in Australia include a lliability insurance element that those in NZ do not. Its a not insignificant policy covering $10m of liability.

 

Details here:- http://www.raa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Members-Liability-Policy.pdf (I assume all RAA members are aware of this and the details of what it covers etc, for those with Aircraft insurance you should be able to negotiate a better rate if you include personal liability in your personal policy because its a top up policy not the primary one, which RAA provides and as such the risk that your personal insurer carrys is less.)

 

If one was to buy that members policy as an individual on top on the NZ rates coverted to AUD the delta wouldnt be great, add in the magazine and I reckon we'd be there, if not in front.

 

There are 2 governing bodies in Australia, in fact there are more than 2, but without doubt RAA is the largest in size.

 

Andy

 

 

[winsor68]

I don't think Ra-Aus is doing much of a job of "Governing" recreational flying... I am talking about being the standards etc regulator... Does the SAAA do any better? GFA seemed to work ok to me when I was a youngster... Ra-Aus does offer a nice insurance policy with membership and they keep a very rough (from what I see online) database of "us" members... When was the last time Ra-Aus ran a "Tech" course to ensure the people carrying out the work are qualified and able? When was the last "Instructors" course? When did your local flying school last have an audit to ensure it is meeting standards? These to me are the things Ra-Aus should be doing... I haven't seen any indication of this happening for the last several years from my neck of the woods.

 

Am I alone here or just wrong to see it like this? Don't know.

 

What I know about the AUF is that it started out (and the messy constitution etc etc appears to back this up) as a Club based organization... Not a commercial flying training administrator.

 

 

[eightyknots]

What I know about the AUF is that it started out (and the messy constitution etc etc appears to back this up) as a Club based organization... Not a commercial flying training administrator.

That is the way I saw it as well. The regulatory functions are a necessary "add-on" to the club's reason for existence.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I find it interesting that I own a Skyfox type, bottles along at 75-80 knots, so it's an LP, I also fly a Eurofox ,it'll get along at around 95 knots , so it's a HP , now ( and I haven't flown the Skyfox yet, hopefully in the next couple of weeks) when I come into land both aircraft will be similar in ground handling ( the Eurofox a bit nicer, but not much) the same in take off, so what is the point of a diffrent rating , I might cover the countryside at 20 knots more , but really that's all ! This adds another dilemma ,at a flyin who do I hang around with , the LP guys with the bugs in the teeth and the messy hairdos ,or the HP guys with the clean jeans and baseball caps,,,,,guess it depends on whether I go doors on or off?Met

MM2 (and Nev) you've raised an interesting question.

 

This means that in my '80 knots cruise' aeroplane I'd be pigeon-holed into the LP category?

 

Oh well, we'd better get

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The SAAA has managed to get through the RPL, compared to the RAA getting the 600kg and the 10000ft restrictions altered. The SAAA are working with CASA to develop their own incident reporting system which looks pretty trick.

 

As far as marketing goes the SAAA managed to organise a flyin last year in the centre of Perth CBD which I thought showed a bit of organisational flair.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I find it interesting that I own a Skyfox type, bottles along at 75-80 knots, so it's an LP, I also fly a Eurofox ,it'll get along at around 95 knots , so it's a HP , now ( and I haven't flown the Skyfox yet, hopefully in the next couple of weeks) when I come into land both aircraft will be similar in ground handling ( the Eurofox a bit nicer, but not much) the same in take off, so what is the point of a diffrent rating , I might cover the countryside at 20 knots more , but really that's all ! This adds another dilemma ,at a flyin who do I hang around with , the LP guys with the bugs in the teeth and the messy hairdos ,or the HP guys with the clean jeans and baseball caps,,,,,guess it depends on whether I go doors on or off?Met

I flew a gazzelle a fair bit, late last century and as well about 20 hours in a Drifter. (my first ever solo was in a drifter). Anyway I dont have LP on my cert. Would it stop me hopping into a gazelle flying it solo? Nope. Its not my fault they didnt add it to my cert, when all the crap endo's came out.My logbook has been signed in regards to being able to fly those aircraft solo at the time.That is good enough for me.

 

 

[facthunter]

There could even be a question of currency with HP/LP. You are supposed to do it in the plane you fly most, but that may be to aid the pilot. They don't stick to it strichtl,y as far as I know. If you choose to do (or accept) another plane that would be up to you. You still have to demonstrate the standard. I think a GA BFR is ok for HP.

 

To me it seems a bit excessive. (but that's only my opinion). In principle we are not supposed to require MORE than GA in any area. That seems reasonable to me. Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

I flew a gazzelle a fair bit, late last century and as well about 20 hours in a Drifter. (my first ever solo was in a drifter). Anyway I dont have LP on my cert. Would it stop me hopping into a gazelle flying it solo? Nope. Its not my fault they didnt add it to my cert, when all the crap endo's came out.My logbook has been signed in regards to being able to fly those aircraft solo at the time.That is good enough for me.

I threw this out there hoping to get more of a response .Thanks Nev. The reason I worded it like I have, was to show that as mentioned by others. The 70/75 Kt rule used as a bench mark is not IMO the best way of doing it.LP/HP. I purposely didnt say that I would hop into a drifter and fly it. That would be stupid and silly. I am not current on Drifters or anything else that light.Smallest plane I have ever flown was a Javelin and that was way back in may 1991 as a student pilot cert holder.(My Javelin)

If a gazzelle on the other hand, wanted to go for a fly and have somebody baby sit it for a few hours. Sure no problem.

 

I still remember when CA22 skyfoxes fitted in the AUF. But the CA25 Gazzelle didnt as it was too heavy at the time. My answer would be pick a MTOW to differentiate the difference between HP/LP.

 

PS-Hang on, that wont work.Somebody will probably build something made of carbon fibre and some unobtainium metal.It will weight 150 KG, have a Rotax engine that produces a MASSIVE 100hp, do 200 knots and fit in my LP category.SO MTOW wont be workable. Hmm- How about just get rid of the HP/LP endo. Pilots should be smart enough to get checked out and trained in what ever aircraft the want to buy /fly .Whether it is a T500 Thruster or a super dooper S4 Sting Carbon.