Question of the Week: You Like to Fly; That Means You're Rolling in Dough, Right?

[Admin]

Even Recreational pilots are beginning to feel pressure for their "rich man's hobby" in this turbulent economy. This week, we'd like to know how your friends, family, and peers view your involvement with aviation. Do others think you're rich because you fly?

 

 

[Skyhog]

As a drought affected farmer trying to accumulate more land and keep machinery up with current technology,I've been broke for years.The few bucks spent on flying help keep me sane.My flying bill is not small,but it is in comparison to my farming bill.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

SKYHOG, great answer. It is my pressure relief valve also. When all goes to Shxx, or you just need to get some space, a good fly will do it everytime. I've been using it for that now for years, and it works every time.

 

Probabily cheaper than Valium, physcotherapy, or Yoga sessions............

 

 

[Skyhog]

Yeah Maj,that's right.I dragged the old Thruster out this arvo and took my 5yo daughter for a burn (only because she asked).I should have done a preflight on her as well as the plane.Her (very long) hair wasn't tied up too well and after approx 20 minutes at 55 knots,she had approx 1100 knots in her hair.After much discomfort (and frowns from mum) the problem is fixed and we won't make that mistake again.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

skyhog in a few years time it will be you asking your daughter to take you for a fly. you won't have to worry about your hair getting knoted it will have all gone by then.

 

me, i've been on the 'drip feed' for 35 years 'they' are just slowly sucking me dry.

 

 

[Skyhog]

skyhog in a few years time it will be you asking your daughter to take you for a fly. you won't have to worry about your hair getting knoted it will have all gone by then.me, i've been on the 'drip feed' for 35 years 'they' are just slowly sucking me dry.

I know what you're saying mate.My 7yo boy usually flies with me and always wants to have a go at steering.I can't even drive the farm ute any more if he's with me,I'm in the passengers seat forever more.Both kids have been promised a RAAus cert when they're old enough.That's when I'll be sucked dry!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

SKYHOG, did the same thing with my daughter when she was five also, in the Drifter. Don't we dads think ?...!!!%#% To hell with thinking, were too busy going flying !! I think it is called making sweet memories.

 

Don't know what you and Ozzie are drinking down there, I'm probabily older than both of you and I've got plenty of hair.......................

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

Flying gives me a sense of achievement and enjoyment. It's also definatly a great relief valve.

 

I'm also using it for goal setting, I know that I want to instruct later down the track, as well as own my own aircraft and possible make it into some kind of hobby business.

 

 

[facthunter]

Expensive?

 

It is an addiction and the habit can consume money at an outrageous rate. If you can't afford it, kick the habit (should take my own advice), otherwise just realise that there is a lot of other things that you will have to cut back on, unless you are genuinely well off. I don't think many of us are, but if it's any consolation, you used to get less than 2 hours flying for a tradesmans wages (fitter etc.), now it's probably 5 hours, so it is relatively much cheaper. Within our umbrella, there is a broad range of cost options. The top end is well beyond me. Not many RAAus people build their own aeroplanes these days, and I really admire those who do. Maybe that will change will more options becoming available.

 

The 760 Kg will make a lot of engines available to us and we are pretty limited at the moment.. Nev..

 

 

[Guest Evan Cameron]

Even Recreational pilots are beginning to feel pressure for their "rich man's hobby" in this turbulent economy. This week, we'd like to know how your friends, family, and peers view your involvement with aviation. Do others think you're rich because you fly?

Absolutly, but when I point out that my plane and the 15 year old car I drive cost less than their new car put together , they seem to look at it differently.;)

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Been getting of the ground now in one form or another since 1968. Can't imagine not having an aeroplane, life just wouldn't be worth living, and you wouldn't want to be around me anyway.

 

Started skydiving at Camden in 1968 and was paying $2.50 to 4 grand in a 172.(3 person load) When I quit jumping in 1977 I was paying $1 per thousand feet of altitude. So going to 16 grand in a DC 3 (42 person load) cost $16. Fifteen seconds of freefall with two other people, or one minute 30 seconds of freefall with 41 other people. It's all relative I guess.

 

Now I pay around $20 for an hours flying in a comfortable state of the art type aircraft, hopefully with somebody beside me to share it with, which beats the hell out of $160-180 in some clapped out GA type aircraft. If you are hooked, your hooked, it's that simple. I may be a broke pilot, but I'm still a pilot !.....................

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Thats $20 direct operating cost? most owners have to factor in all the other costs like purchase cost,interest on the loan, insurance, hangerage, landing fees,rego, tax on the above, wear and tear, scheduled and unscheduled maintainence, more if you can't do it yourself. The true cost is more than just fuel and oil.

 

 

[facthunter]

Certainly.

 

Agree with that Ozzie. You have to take in ALL the costs to be real. Depreciation, hangarage, insurance, wear and tear. (if the aeroplane has hours on it the long term costs are accumulating). You are only putting off acknowledging them.

 

I am getting a little concerned to the frequent reference to "clapped-out" GA planes. Surely that is taking more than a little bit of poetic license. All these aircraft are inspected every 100 hours, or annually, and signed off by a qualified person, who could go to gaol if there was any negligence or falsification, in what is done. The ageing planes are costly to maintain, but they ARE maintained., or they are not airworthy.

 

, and shouldn't fly.

 

Incidently, the fact that large numbers of AD's might be listed on a particular type, is, amongst other things, a result of time in service and the knowledge that has been gained being used to rectify faults,(and every plane has them, remember the Comet, Lockheed Electra, DC-10 , etc. NEW aircraft don't have them because the inevitable faults havn't shown up yet, so there is some comfort in a PROVEN design with a bit of age on it against a new concept where all the bugs are not ironed out of it yet. Nev

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

I believe the opening question is a tad polarised – a lot depends on how people see your circumstances and how much they realise about basic costs.

 

 

A parallel could be boating. If you have a little tinny you keep at home on a tatty trailer and take it to the sea/lake to sling a line in then your are probably classed as an everyday Joe. If you own a 350k cat and keep it at a posh marina then you are undoubtably rich. On the other hand if you own a twin Merc that sleeps six, has a instrument array like an airliner, and you keep it on the drive mounted upon its tri axle trailer – your wealth is probably assessed by how much you can afford in terms of leisure pursuit (as well as image).

 

 

Personal circumstances have a large bearing as well. I live in a small rural community and I am well known for ‘being in aviation’. Most of the locals do not associate that with being rich (they know I am not) but more as how I earn a crust now and then.

 

 

Airline pilots are traditionally regarded as being ‘rich’ (which is often a fallacy) but they have put the expensive years in (like doctors, lawyers etc) to gain good incomes later in life – and often paid dearly to be able to get there.

 

 

Many of my locals own trucks, plant, farm machinery etc that if sold could buy the entire local airfield – but those things are also part of their living and goes without comment.

 

 

I agree that there has been a traditional and enduring concept that you must be rich to fly but that again is often more associated with what you are doing (and may own) as being unusual. But I equally believe that the advent of the ultralight movement, gyros, hang gliding, ultralights becoming effective pieces of property working equipment etc. has been a big leveller and the guy in the street more readily equates to flying as being within reach if a decision was taken to go that way.

 

 

Tony

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Yes Ozzie, that $20 estimated operating cost, doesn't include all the other indirect costs, which of course should be figured, but I dind't see much reason for depressing myself, and the rest of us.

 

If we look at those as follows, on a monthly basis:

 

hangarage 100.00 mth

 

Finance Co 1010.00 mth

 

Insurance 183.00 mth

 

plane/pilot rego 35.00 mth

 

Misc..maps etc 10.00 mth

 

--------------------------------------

 

$1338.00 mth

 

---------------

 

I did not include contribution to airfield maintenance (250.00 year), or aircraft maintenance, as I am an Aircraft maintenance Eng.by trade, and a practising Level 2.

 

Also didn't include aircraft depreciation, because I actually made money on my last aircraft, which I owned and maintained, and as I purchased this one at the 'right' price I would expect not to loose on this one either. I firmly believe that if you buy the right machine, hangar and maintain it, you won't loose too much come sell time. If you are not paying a finance company off, your monthly costs will be a lot less. Above costs also don't include auto fuel, to and from airfield.

 

I try and average 2 hours or more a week, so at 8 hrs a month, with the $20 direct we are now looking at $187.00 per flying hour. Now I'm really depressed thank you.

 

Without the finance costs you would be looking at $29.00 per hour of flying which is great compared to GA.

 

Facthunter my friend, many of the points you make are valid ones. My comment in reference to 'clapped out GA aircraft' is possibly a learned one, as I maintain these aircraft for a living, and have done for over 30 years now. By 'clapped out' I was thinking relative to your basic training UL, which are generally a much newer type IE: Tecnams, Sportstars, Jabs Etc.

 

Granted many of the GA training fleet aircraft are well over 30 years old by now, and yes they are servicable when they leave the hangar. They are however spending more and more time in the hangar, as time catches up with them, and operators are becoming more reluctant to spend more money on them, compared to what they can return to a flying school. As you know the more progressive flying schools (bankstown for example) have started intergrating more Class A UL trainers into thier fleets, and are making good returns with them, as less is being required for maintenance, with these newer aircraft. I hope you see my point......Cheers....

 

 

[facthunter]

View.

 

MAJ. I appreciate the view you have but have a thought for the operators who try to operate the Larger trainers. Even if they have spent good money renovating extensively and do the right thing, they are included with the generalisations that abound in terms such as you have used.

 

Time will tell if the lighter built aircraft will be up to the job. The metal ones have yet to prove whether the corrosion and structural aspects are equal to the task. people are not getting any lighter either and max weights should be observed.(obviously).

 

There is room for both ends of the market. I don't have a vested interest either way, and I'm sure that some defensive attitudes would come to the fore, if our types were cast in an unfavourable light. We have already seen plenty of evidence of that, and a few contributors to this forum have found how difficult it is to claim any fault with the Jabiru family. (but we are not one-eyed, are we?). Nev..

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

what is the dry hourly hire rate of a jab and a C172 these days?

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

The new aircraft at Bankstown (Liberty and Tecnams) have had some big problems I don't think the Liberty's will be around for that much longer I believe they have written off 4 airframes last year due to mainly hard landings. The tecnams are very much the same and they are having trouble keeping them in the air.

 

I also heard the biggest buyer of the Liberty (a school in the states) has just dumped them because they are not lasting.

 

I agree I don't like the ageing GA fleet (more than 50% of the GA fleet is over 30 years old!) but the new bread just arn't strong enough to withstand the punishment of the training enviorment.

 

Sorry for the thread drift Ian but you probably expect it for me now!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Fair enough Facthunter, I see your point..................