888z

9 hours ago, IBob said:

888z nobody here is trying to sell you anything. You asked for information to help you choose, people are responding by pointing you to information that may be useful. Part of that is understanding why there was a general move away from LE slats to vortex generators. And the Stolspeed owner was foremost in that and there are very good studies on his website.

With the engine size and fuel consumption there is no magic : x fuel in gives you y hp/kw out. The 80hp engine will give you an aircraft that requires a longer takeoff run, climbs slower, and cruises slower. It's that simple.

Regarding the Savannahs, there is some confusion with the naming, which seems to vary a bit from country to country.
1. Here in NZ I do not think we have any of the original models with the LE slats.
2. We have the next model, which is called the VG because they removed the slats and added the vortex generators
From there, ICP remodelled the fuselage in 2 stages:
3. We have the model after the VG which is called the XL or VGXL. This has the remodelled front end, larger cockpit etc, but still has the flat sided rear fuselage.
4. And we have the model after that which is called the S. This has the rear fuselage remodelled and rounded.

 

Finally, so far as i know, nobody imports the BRM aircraft here.


 

Hello IBob.

Here in Spain we only have VG and XL. (Not the VGXL, hehe).

I am sorry, I didn't explain well about the website. I think the website you said is great, it has many detailed studies and very usefull information. I spent some hours reading there before you spoke about the website, and after. I just wanted to mean that they sell vortex generators, so it could be normal that they could be a bit subjective or more positive sometimes, it was just a comment that I shouldn't say it because it is a personal opinion. What it is clear is that Vortex generators are the improvement of the slats in the Savannah and they give you better cruise, etc.

By the way, thanks to everybody about the information that you are telling me. I didn't expect all these fast and detailed answers and all the information that I get from you all. Thanks a lot to you people from NZ, Australia, etc!!

7 hours ago, IBob said:

888z here is a link to an excellent site, where the owner has done a great deal of work on the question of slats vs vortex generators. I recommend reading up on this, if you have not already done so:

https://www.stolspeed.com/slats-v-s-vgs

 

As for fuel economy: I think I'd be right to say pretty much nobody down this way fits an 80HP engine.
Part of the reason for this is that the fuel consumption is only a part of the ongoing cost of owning and running an aircraft, and the extra $$$ on fuel and consumption is well spent in terms of range and performance. The ULS is also a better proposition when it comes to resale.

Hey, I just saw this website some days ago and it has good information. By the other side, they sale the Vortex generators, hehe.

Yes, 100 hp will be always better but it is more expensive and has more consumption. I was thinking about buying second hand and I have updated my budget to buy a "like new one" option, almost new, for some thousands more...

7 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

The VGXL is the same cabin width as the S version. Everything is the same except the flap/aileron connection method and the rear empange. The S supposedly a little stronger with the curved curfaces but the tail feathers are the same. I have built both versions.

Any 912ULS that is older than around 2007/8 will have the later 6x6 CDI modules from about 2010 onwards they then had softstart available but you had the choice whether to enable it or not this was regardless of the flywheel type

I would get the 100hp engine not the 80hp the weight difference is minimal but the performance is a lot different.

Land Africa??? do you mean Savannah Africa?

They do factory built savannahs for South Africa and do a good job possibly cheaper than you can get a local one for except of course for freight and taxes maybe.

The VG is not the same in Spain, it has not rounded corners (the one I personaly saw and the ones in internet). Correct me if not!

Land Africa (BRM) is a Portuguese version of the Savannah, like onetrack says. 😅

Hello,

I just got some news. Maybe we can get newer Land Africa for a good price.

What do you think about the Land Africa compared with the Savannah? Are they exactly the same?

This plane have a Rotax 912 with 80hp, which I think it is much better from consumption. As we said about -25% less consumption.

Thanks!

Hello guys, I wasn't expecting all these answers. Really thanks for the fast ans super well explained support.

IBod 

On 13/08/2023 at 1:58 AM, IBob said:

Some early models of the 912 were vulnerable to crankcase fretting ($$$$$).
Early 912s have a 1500hrs TBO, later models have a 2000hr TBO.
Later 912s have a much improved ignition retard for starting. Poor starting on earlier 912 could lead to sprag clutch damage ($$$).
So, I'd be looking for a 2000hr TBO engine, recent enough to have the new ignition soft start setup.
Also, the 912 has a 5year rubber replacement requirement, including the fuel pump and all the engine hoses. There is some cost in this, so when is it due?
Rotax have an excellent website with a user's forum where you can read up on all this.
Be aware also that the Savannah has comprehensive 1000hr checks to be carried out on the airframe. Again there is some cost, so when is that due?

Apart from that, I would be looking at the general condition of the aircraft, how it has been cared for. And I would be going through the maintenance records to see that it has been kept maintained and if there is any damage history.
I would most strongly recommend that you get an experienced aviator and/or maintanance person to check over the aircraft and paperwork with you.

As for VG vs S model:
Most VGs will have the older engines: (see above)
The S is definitely more roomy and that is an improvement. (It also has more baggage space if  it has the extended baggage mod, though baggage is still limited to 20Kg).
The VG probably has the edge on the S when it comes to STOL, though the S is still very good.
The S is a bit faster in the cruise, though we're not sure why.
Also, these are lightly constructed aircraft and will have a shorter working life than older GA aircraft.
So, generally speaking, I would go for the S unless your main aim is to win STOL comps.
 

Thanks for the guidance IBod. It looks the Savannah VG had the 912 ULS fitted on them in Spain, at least the ones on sale at the moment. Thanks for the advice about this, I will always look for 912 engines of 2000 TBO and better ignition.

Nice advice about the 5 years for rubber and fuel pump replacement. 1000hr checks to the airframe too.

I thought the wider model was only for the Savannah XL version. Like cars, the S version is the best. It has 2000 TBO (like many VGs), it is wider like the XL, Vortex instead slots, and has the rounded fuselage corners which is nicer. If the price difference is only 3000 or 4000 euros in the second hand market, it looks the best option.

On 13/08/2023 at 2:04 AM, IBob said:

PS: some S models come with long range fuel tanks, 4 instead of 2, and that is the standard arrangement in Australia and NZ.
If you are going to make longer trips this can make a real difference: the 912 runs on mogas, which is not always available and may require multiple trips to town, while away, in order to refuel.

I didn't know about the 4 fuel tanks option, thanks. Everybody uses Mogas for the ultralights in the aerodrome where I go, so it is ok.

On 13/08/2023 at 7:08 AM, skippydiesel said:

• A good/detailed maintenance history is a must.
• Service items should be of good quality ie  meeting/exceeding Rotax standards
• Fuel used - routine use of AvGas has negative  implications
• Compression/Leak Down tests can give valuable insight into engine condition.
• Oil consumption.
• How the prop pitch has been set ie on WOT or Static may give clues as to the likelihood of an engine suffering  "crankcase fretting"
• Frequency of use - low hours are not always good.
• Cooling system performance ie is the engine routinely running cold/hot - almost as bad as each other.
• How the aircraft is used - training - STOLL activity - cruising - club - single/shared ownership - number of owners - routine engine operating rpm (low is as bad as overspeed).
• At around 1200 hrs the gearbox should be inspected and worn parts replaced
• Engine cleanliness/neatness - I have always believed that good engine care, starts with a clean tidy engine. Not talking sparkling, just nice and tidy. Quality aircraft approach eg Hoses/cables appropriately secured. Heat shielding where required (this can be overdone). No open holes in the firewall. No oil/fuel staining. Nothing loose. Etc.

 

Hi Skippydiesel. What cons can have to buy an ex-training Savannah (apart from many hours of use), and should I be checking anything particular on these kinds of planes? All the Savannah planes that I see were from "schools" in the past.

On 13/08/2023 at 7:34 AM, IBob said:

I have no idea if they have an on condition program for the 912 in Spain, something that 888z may need to look into.

We have he same 1500 - 2000 hrs TBO for new Rotax engines in Spain.

23 hours ago, pluessy said:

Fuel burn on the 80hp is around 14lph at 75% (91 octane), the 100hp uses around 18-19lph, but minimum 95 octane (premium). Here in OZ that makes a big difference in fuel price (UL95 is ~$.15 and UL98 ~$0.20 more than UL91). Many European countries have much smaller differences and some don't even produce UL91 any more.

It seems a lot more consumption. We only have 95 octane and 98 octane in Spain. 25% difference is a lot, but I think we only got Rotax 912 100hp in this country or this is what I was told.

Thanks for the other messages about ignition and electric system. The "trick" we do at the school when cutting off the engine (we have an old Bingo with Rotax 503) is to cut the last magneto while pressing the choke mechanism to avoid backfiring.

Thanks guys!

Hello,

I got my license some weeks ago and now it is time to look for a plane.

In my country, Spain, there are some second hand ICP Savannah for sale. Most of them are 100hp and their prices are around 34000 - 43000 euros.

I have already seen 2 of them, VG and S versions. As I am new to this area, I have many questions.

- Would you go for S versions (rounded and wider fuselage) if the difference is only 3000 or 4000 euros?

- Is 1000 hours too much for buying a plane like this?

- What is the difference in consumption from 80hp to 100hp? I am told it is a very big difference in consumption .

- Any advice on what to check when buying a Savannah?

Thanks a lot!!!

Hello everybody!

I have just got my recreational ultralight plane license. I live in the north east area of Spain, near Castellón and Valencia.

I don't have a plane but I am looking for it at the moment. 

Thanks!!