LSA

Garry Morgan

Morgan range of aircraft
#1
LSA after spending 2 years on our Sierra 200 having the first approval cancaled for some reason RAA wont tell us of replie to and E mails or post. we tried to go LSA and I think we are 90% there .I had a guy that has an appointment with CASA come to the hangar to look at the aircraft.
There is no way this guy is going to pass anything. and to finish off he said my aircraft will never pass LSA with the Jabiru motor . So I wonder where this will end up ? This now i believe is in CASA hands who are looking at the Jab motor.
I got a bit rude with a well know CASA guy and told them that no aircraft will fly in Aussie soon the way things are going.
 

facthunter

First Class Member
First Class Member
#2
If there is a certified jabiru engine out there and you have one and install it properly that should be it.
re your last comment. THEY don't care whether you or me or anyone else flys. they have the say and that's the way it is. Grounded plane are safe ones. that's how it is with them. There is nothing in it for them to stick their necks out. Good luck anyhow. Nev
 

David Isaac

Well-Known Member
#3
Sorry to hear that Garry,
To be told "there is no way" is profoundly arrogant. Where there is a will there is always a way. Get better advice and determine in yourself to give it your best shot. You have had some hard lessons applied over past months, now try and capitalise on them. As much as there was much controversy over some recent issues with you, I am certain the majority would rather you succeed and improve your aircraft than see your demise. So all power to you ... give it your best shot.
Sincerely,
 

winsor68

Well-Known Member
#4
LSA after spending 2 years on our Sierra 200 having the first approval cancaled for some reason RAA wont tell us of replie to and E mails or post. we tried to go LSA and I think we are 90% there .I had a guy that has an appointment with CASA come to the hangar to look at the aircraft.
There is no way this guy is going to pass anything. and to finish off he said my aircraft will never pass LSA with the Jabiru motor . So I wonder where this will end up ? This now i believe is in CASA hands who are looking at the Jab motor.
I got a bit rude with a well know CASA guy and told them that no aircraft will fly in Aussie soon the way things are going.
Perhaps we need to be filled in with a LOT more details of exactly what is going with Ra-Aus in regards to some LSA Aircraft and their manufacturers lately... from what I can gather some LSA rego aircraft were grounded and Factory Compliance withdrawn... No one seems to have answered the question of why or given anything too much concrete.
What can you tell us Garry?

And to Ra-Aus...
What is going to be done to fix it? How bad was the problem... Heck!!! What was the problem?
 

damkia

Well-Known Member
#5
Perhaps we need to be filled in with a LOT more details of exactly what is going with Ra-Aus in regards to some LSA Aircraft and their manufacturers lately...
And to Ra-Aus...
What is going to be done to fix it? How bad was the problem... Heck!!! What was the problem?
...and why haven't those people that have PAID YOUR SALARY (by way of subscriptions to RA-Aus) been kept INFORMED of what is going on in an HONEST, and OPEN manner befitting an executive structure?

Time for a legal referral, I think.

At the very least a formal complaint and request for a spill of ALL positions within RA-Aus to be made to CASA by way of their overall governance of RA-Aus, followed by a gradual rebuilding by CASA of RA-Aus with new staff, and a new charter.

The more I see of this clandestine, deceitful behaviour by an organisation entrusted to guard the safety of the flying population the less inclined I am to become a part of it (I'll go GA despite the extra cost and complexity).
 

facthunter

First Class Member
First Class Member
#6
I don't see the problem being with RAAus. You couldn't have a situation where they could put pressure on the regulator. The legislation does not require CASA to aid any body. The FAA operate differently. Nev
 

damkia

Well-Known Member
#7
I don't see the problem being with RAAus. You couldn't have a situation where they could put pressure on the regulator. The legislation does not require CASA to aid any body. The FAA operate differently. Nev
RA-Aus have grounded aircraft without reasonable explanation (per your post #2 and Windsor68 #4)
RA-Aus have failed to explain WHY an aircraft with a certified Jab motor will not pass LSA (Gary's post #1)

RA-Aus operate as an entity under CASA, separate from GA, but still under CASA by way of the various exemptions to the regulations required by RA-Aus registered aircraft. Ultimately this whole lack of transparency and consistency by RA-Aus needs to be referred to the governing body - CASA. (escalating the problem due to inappropriate response).

Sweep it under the carpet for another year????....and another year???????......and another year????????????

I say, bring it to a head and fix the problem NOW, before more people die (literally).
 

facthunter

First Class Member
First Class Member
#10
I took Gary as being involved with CASA because that is what he said. ( I still believe that is the case.) It is CASA that is making the decision. If the RAAus was involved in withdrawing the original approvals for whatever reason that was then and may not necessarily be the issue here. They would be doing it as directed I assume in the first instance. I just cannot see your point of complaining to CASA about the RAAus actions. and I can't see what is being swept under the carpet. Nev
 

damkia

Well-Known Member
#11
I took Gary as being involved with CASA because that is what he said. ( I still believe that is the case.) It is CASA that is making the decision. If the RAAus was involved in withdrawing the original approvals for whatever reason that was then and may not necessarily be the issue here. They would be doing it as directed I assume in the first instance. I just cannot see your point of complaining to CASA about the RAAus actions. and I can't see what is being swept under the carpet. Nev
These two questions remain...

RA-Aus have grounded aircraft without reasonable explanation (per your post #2 and Windsor68 #4)
RA-Aus have failed to explain WHY an aircraft with a certified Jab motor will not pass LSA (Gary's post #1)
It is the RA-Aus that is the "mouthpiece" here, and by both accounts the response was non-existant or unsatifactory.

If there is a reason, then it is fair and just that that reason be known to those who need to know, and the RA-Aus should be the people to do it even if it is decree from CASA.

A design was produced around a certified engine package in use by other companies, and the design has been rejected on the basis of its use of that engine package. No compensation, minimal explanation. Does Gary have a right to a full explanation given the cost involved in re engineering the aircraft for a different engine, or the exclusion from the now lucrative LSA market?

I am not "taking down" RA-Aus, simply stating that there appears to be a distinct lack of accountability and responsibility within the organisation, resulting in inconsistent decision making processes, and a lack of adequate communication with the people they are legally delegated to communicate with. With that in mind, perhaps there needs to be another look at who is responsible for these decisions (spill of positions), and the structure that allows the decision making and communication to be done in such a way (charter). This would be best addressed by CASA from the ground up by "rebuilding" RA-Aus.
 

Camel

Well-Known Member
#12
I have been following this closely as I talk to Gary Morgan and know his frustration. I also know a private owner who has gone through all the frustration of having his Foxcon Terrier removed from LSA. I also have spoken to several board members and they have not been able to change anything, but look at this link and read the name of the people and you will understand. http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100159/d2p7_lsa.pdf
 

damkia

Well-Known Member
#14
I have been following this closely as I talk to Gary Morgan and know his frustration. I also know a private owner who has gone through all the frustration of having his Foxcon Terrier removed from LSA. I also have spoken to several board members and they have not been able to change anything, but look at this link and read the name of the people and you will understand. http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100159/d2p7_lsa.pdf
The board members may not have been able to change anything, but they could have more effectively communicated this fact with a bit of explanation....

The history of Lee Ungermann (circled in the document) is what (or is he even the "intended target")? A good percentage of people here may not be "in the know". Is it possible to give a reasonably concise, objective overview here, or is this another "swept under the carpet", "never to be spoken about again" exercise in history?
 

Camel

Well-Known Member
#16
The board members may not have been able to change anything, but they could have more effectively communicated this fact with a bit of explanation....

The history of Lee Ungermann (circled in the document) is what (or is he even the "intended target")? A good percentage of people here may not be "in the know". Is it possible to give a reasonably concise, objective overview here, or is this another "swept under the carpet", "never to be spoken about again" exercise in history?
The document also involves Mick Poole if you look at the top of the page, he is the technical officer Sports Aviation at CASA.
 
A

Andys@coffs

Guest
#17
And if you read the document with a view of taking it ALL in rather than just looking for names you would see that much of the focus on LSA in Australia stemmed from USA experience where 26 of 30 LSA examples failed to meet the regulatory requirements of LSA in the USA, FAA pressumably in turn advised CASA who pressumably suddenly became much more interested than they might otherwise have been.

Dont know for sure but would suggest that coms between FAA and CASA probably wasnt directly to Lee or Mick, rather they might well have recieved marching orders from on high......and here we now are....

Or have I completely missed the point?

I must admit I would like to know how many of the 26 failures would have been classed as failures here given our much more sensible rules like speed = what ever you feel you can get out of the limitations applied elswhere rather than 120kts=go no faster....still it would be exceedingly hopeful to suggest that would affect the majority....

Andy
 
#18
re Foxcon Terrier LSA
i was notified on 21/5/2012 that the Special Certificate of Airworthiness issued for my aircraft 24 xxxx is invalid and therefor the aircraft "must not be flow" until is has been reclassified to 19 xxxx.
from what information i can get it appears to be an issue with the engine (Subaru)
the negotiations have been beween the Manufacturer, C.A.S.A andR.A.A.
The manufacturer informed me by email that my registration will be reclassified to 19 catagory.
The aircraft was first registered as 24 xxxx on 6/3/2008 aproved by C.A.S.A and R.A.A. has been happily acceping my registration money since then.
i purchased 24 xxxx aircraft for reasons such as dual controls for training if needed and hire of aircraft to other pilots whose criteria is acceptble to insurance provider.
Manufacturer, C.A.S.A and R.A.A. have come to an agreement but guess who loses out financially (loss of value of aircraft) loss of maybe income from hire.
you guessed right> ME. maybe i will be finacially compensated for the loss and projected losses that i have incurred.
I still have not been notified when i can fly my aircraft or does is become a static display in a hanger that i pay rent for.
i do not know the status of other owners dilemas.
snow
 

facthunter

First Class Member
First Class Member
#19
Snow and a few others. Aviation IS a great way to lose money. Welcome to the flying world. All that is happening is that a bit of slackness has been out there and it is being addressed. I lost about 60k in the last 5 years because rules were changed in midstream. I don't expect compensation nor should you, because I'm a realist, not a hoper. It would be a good thing for the participants in aviation if they had a bit more assurance of things being done predictably and consistently. Would I seriously advise any one to get involved in aviation. NO. Do I have friends who are involved in aviation in a big way YES. Do they think things are done right? NO . is it likely to change for the better No.... Nev
 

av8vfr

Well-Known Member
#20
Snow and a few others. Aviation IS a great way to lose money. Welcome to the flying world. All that is happening is that a bit of slackness has been out there and it is being addressed. I lost about 60k in the last 5 years because rules were changed in midstream. I don't expect compensation nor should you, because I'm a realist, not a hoper. It would be a good thing for the participants in aviation if they had a bit more assurance of things being done predictably and consistently. Would I seriously advise any one to get involved in aviation. NO. Do I have friends who are involved in aviation in a big way YES. Do they think things are done right? NO . is it likely to change for the better No.... Nev
While I can see all the logic in this statement, the best part is your signature "never stop learning".... lol
 
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